AZJohnC
Active Member
Priorities change I did my thing we won five championships in this car time to pass it on
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Forum membership has its advantages....
Class 5 only
- Thread starter bajabird
- Start date
Jeffers909
Well-Known Member
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Check your emails. An important email regarding 5 Unlimited engine rules was sent out.
turbodon
Well-Known Member
Saw the email.
Can't think of any cars off-hand that would be illegal based on the rule change now other than the Grabowski 5u.
Also saw a couple nice 5u's on the RD classifieds here... looks like JFW chassis/build 001 up for 80K and Ethan's new body style Crumco up for 60k.
Can't think of any cars off-hand that would be illegal based on the rule change now other than the Grabowski 5u.
Also saw a couple nice 5u's on the RD classifieds here... looks like JFW chassis/build 001 up for 80K and Ethan's new body style Crumco up for 60k.
steve0we
Well-Known Member
The new rules will keep the class growing for sure! Stoked to see CODY step up and lead the way!
SKM Built
Well-Known Member
I think Cody hit it spot on with the rules. This is exactly what we need for our class, great set of solid rules that should make 95% of the class happy. Thank you Cody,
bhernquist
Well-Known Member
I saw the e-mail and spoke to Cody and like his direction. He told me yesterday that his idea is to keep CR "stock" but allow rebuilding and modifications like ported heads, aftermarket cams/intakes, etc... Also, I'm not sure why Grabowski's are "illegal" but I have installed a mild mod Honda K24 in my car that is legal for all sanctioning bodys and want to be able to race MORE too. Cody said that was his intent and I hope that happens.
swiftracing5
Well-Known Member
Thanks Cody. Are you going to whistle as part of post tech or is it a protest basis?
SKM Built
Well-Known Member
The rules he sent out specifically state no aftermarket cams and no aftermarket intakes/throttle bodies, unless I missed something
Head, Block, Crank, Cam, Intake Manifold and Throttle body must be OEM. You can put different pistons and rods in as long as the compression stays the same, +/- .1 is the way I read it.
I'm still air cooled but I think these rules are fair. Allows you to rebuild your motor, some parts have to be OEM but if a stock replacement is available it's fair.
I'm still air cooled but I think these rules are fair. Allows you to rebuild your motor, some parts have to be OEM but if a stock replacement is available it's fair.
bhernquist
Well-Known Member
I spoke to Cody yesterday and understood that these were proposed rules - not final - and that he was allowing ported OEM heads and aftermarket cams and was considering aftermarket manifolds and TBs. I spoke to him again today and confirmed that my understanding is correct. I expect him to send out revised "proposed" motor rules.
Chris Schweers
Active Member
You can put different pistons and rods in as long as the compression stays the same,
I highly disagree with the above !! we need to stay away from lightweight pistons and rods,
We have done it, and it makes a deference in HP
Jon
I highly disagree with the above !! we need to stay away from lightweight pistons and rods,
We have done it, and it makes a deference in HP
Jon
Jeffers909
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The purpose of these rules is not to make everyone have the same HP. This is class 5 "Unlimited" not class 5 Spec. We have voted multiple times over the years. In the beginning everyone wanted to be able to massage these motors not have any tags just limit displacement. Now, 10 years later half the class still wants to be able to massage, the other half wants pure stock. These rules are aimed to be right in the middle, a compromise.
Podium finishers will checked for displacement and compression ratio each race.
Podium finishers will checked for displacement and compression ratio each race.
turbodon
Well-Known Member
Now I'm very confused.
How would this have any change or effect over the current rules?
The current rules are honestly loose and open-ended. Leaves a lot up to the interpretation of the car owner and/ or engine builder:
-Has to be 2.5L or less production engine
-Retain cast block and cast head
**My interpretation of this is that you can build a full tilt race engine as long as the factory block and head are retained and displacement doesn't exceed 2.5L.
**It reads "have cast heads and cast block." [Different from the term some other classes use: "as-cast"]
The email proposed new rules we received said:
Must retain matching OEM Parts as delivered and paired from factory. No alterations unless stated otherwise in the rules below. (No mixing of different OEM parts from different motors, must be from the same series/model engine, and manufactured for that particular engine):
Head, Block, Crankshaft, Camshafts, Intake Manifold, Throttle Body
Blocking and/or opening lubrication and coolant passages will be allowed. Adding, removing, lightening, chamfering or “knife edging” crankshaft counterweights is strictly prohibited.
Heads can be decked for trueing (excess decking resulting in compression ratios exceeding 1/10 over factory specs is forbidden)
Aftermarket engine internals that are not listed as stock OEM parts above are permitted if factory displacement and compression ratio remain no more than 1/10 over factory specs.
No titanium parts allowed.
OEM valve size must be retained.
Counter Balance Shafts can be deleted.
Welding on the cylinder head will NOT be permitted.
ECU’s are open.
---------------------
As mentioned in an above comment, this proposal essentially specifies a stock engine that can be rebuild with aftermarket pistons and rods.
Many of the items mentioned are pretty much specific to the K series Honda. The K24 series is notorious for being built up by utilizing "stock" JDM, type S, K20 parts including the oil pump, cam, head, balance shaft delete, etc. If you were ever into the Rice scene, it's pretty widely known these engines have massive potential with very little [aftermarket / non-honda] parts.
This mixing and matching is not done on the Ecotec platform. There are no toyota engines currently being run, there are 2 subarus; 1 being grabowski with a fully built 100k engine, the other being David Sissum who already said he's converting to a 2.5DI ecotec very soon. As for the K series there's Cade's car which was sold to the Kelson Team, JFW car 001 which is for sale, and Bill Hernquist. I cant think of any others.
The other 90+ % of everyone is running the Ecotec platform, almost all of which are stock I believe. And almost all of these guys advocate for the stock engine rule.
---------------------------
Now 1 day later after those proposed rules are presented, we already have a massive revision suggesting that the following is being considered
Ported heads allowed
Cams allowed
aftermarket mainfolds
Aftermarket TB
Must retain stock compression.
Aren't we just right back into the same pool where you can again have a race engine, just like you can right now?
When 90+ % have stock engines and are minimally effected by this change, it seems very strange that the extremely small percentage of cars are lobbying to ensure the configuration they've invested in is a legal platform, but the next step up would not be legal.
Stock is OK
Watered down race/ modified engine OK
Full race engine, NOT OK
Makes no sense to me at all, but maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. Not seeing any change other than the Grabowski's would be illegal and Bill would be legal with his mildly built K24 that ironically has low compression to run PEMEX pump fuel down in Mexico.
All the guys with their stock engines that can afford to blow 10-15k on a built engine will, the ones that can't afford it will remain stock and complain that the new rules handicap them. You'll see a trend like 1600 did where the hi-comp engine became obsolete against the low-comp engine and cars would not show up to race due to the unfair handicap that forced them to make a significant investment in the car to remain competitive. Maybe this is a dramatization, but it makes you wonder....
How would this have any change or effect over the current rules?
The current rules are honestly loose and open-ended. Leaves a lot up to the interpretation of the car owner and/ or engine builder:
-Has to be 2.5L or less production engine
-Retain cast block and cast head
**My interpretation of this is that you can build a full tilt race engine as long as the factory block and head are retained and displacement doesn't exceed 2.5L.
**It reads "have cast heads and cast block." [Different from the term some other classes use: "as-cast"]
The email proposed new rules we received said:
Must retain matching OEM Parts as delivered and paired from factory. No alterations unless stated otherwise in the rules below. (No mixing of different OEM parts from different motors, must be from the same series/model engine, and manufactured for that particular engine):
Head, Block, Crankshaft, Camshafts, Intake Manifold, Throttle Body
Blocking and/or opening lubrication and coolant passages will be allowed. Adding, removing, lightening, chamfering or “knife edging” crankshaft counterweights is strictly prohibited.
Heads can be decked for trueing (excess decking resulting in compression ratios exceeding 1/10 over factory specs is forbidden)
Aftermarket engine internals that are not listed as stock OEM parts above are permitted if factory displacement and compression ratio remain no more than 1/10 over factory specs.
No titanium parts allowed.
OEM valve size must be retained.
Counter Balance Shafts can be deleted.
Welding on the cylinder head will NOT be permitted.
ECU’s are open.
---------------------
As mentioned in an above comment, this proposal essentially specifies a stock engine that can be rebuild with aftermarket pistons and rods.
Many of the items mentioned are pretty much specific to the K series Honda. The K24 series is notorious for being built up by utilizing "stock" JDM, type S, K20 parts including the oil pump, cam, head, balance shaft delete, etc. If you were ever into the Rice scene, it's pretty widely known these engines have massive potential with very little [aftermarket / non-honda] parts.
This mixing and matching is not done on the Ecotec platform. There are no toyota engines currently being run, there are 2 subarus; 1 being grabowski with a fully built 100k engine, the other being David Sissum who already said he's converting to a 2.5DI ecotec very soon. As for the K series there's Cade's car which was sold to the Kelson Team, JFW car 001 which is for sale, and Bill Hernquist. I cant think of any others.
The other 90+ % of everyone is running the Ecotec platform, almost all of which are stock I believe. And almost all of these guys advocate for the stock engine rule.
---------------------------
Now 1 day later after those proposed rules are presented, we already have a massive revision suggesting that the following is being considered
Ported heads allowed
Cams allowed
aftermarket mainfolds
Aftermarket TB
Must retain stock compression.
Aren't we just right back into the same pool where you can again have a race engine, just like you can right now?
When 90+ % have stock engines and are minimally effected by this change, it seems very strange that the extremely small percentage of cars are lobbying to ensure the configuration they've invested in is a legal platform, but the next step up would not be legal.
Stock is OK
Watered down race/ modified engine OK
Full race engine, NOT OK
Makes no sense to me at all, but maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. Not seeing any change other than the Grabowski's would be illegal and Bill would be legal with his mildly built K24 that ironically has low compression to run PEMEX pump fuel down in Mexico.
All the guys with their stock engines that can afford to blow 10-15k on a built engine will, the ones that can't afford it will remain stock and complain that the new rules handicap them. You'll see a trend like 1600 did where the hi-comp engine became obsolete against the low-comp engine and cars would not show up to race due to the unfair handicap that forced them to make a significant investment in the car to remain competitive. Maybe this is a dramatization, but it makes you wonder....
Slippery P
Well-Known Member
The compression ratio rule of no more than .1 is concerning, being that if you tore down 5 brand new engines side by side did the necessary measurements, and mathematically calculated the compression ratio, I guarantee there would be a variance of more than .1 across all 5 engines.
Bro_Gill
Live. Laugh. Love.
Yes, but you also know that static compression is not the same as dynamic compression with cam overlap, etc...
bhernquist
Well-Known Member
Damn... You had to go make this complicated didn't you... LOL
Slippery P
Well-Known Member
Sure.
How far can my spark plug protrude into the cylinder? Are there any rules to that?
swiftracing5
Well-Known Member
Bro_Gill
Live. Laugh. Love.
You can stick it in as far as you want, just don't let it hit the up down parts.
mgobaja
Well-Known Member
all the way to the point of impact