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Class 5 only

VIGILANTE

Member
I agree 100%. No limit on Motor size. It's 5 unlimited leave the motors unlimited. Im not sure when BITD changed their motor rules for class 5 but last year it was ANY size four cylinder air or water cooled ANY make. Did not have to be VW. I thought that rule would bring some cars to the class but apparently it didn't.
I like the idea of any four cylinder unlimited mods!
If it has four cylinders bring it!
It seemed like BITD had that change of rules only for 2011. During 2011 we bought our Ecotec thinking it was legal. Some say a miss print, who knows. We made many phone calls and typed lots of emails back and forth to BITD asking if the any 4 cyl. Motor would b ok, and they said yes. That's obviously not the case anymore. We have now designed our car around the Eco.
 

down4glamis

Well-Known Member
2012 Mint had 10+, 2011 MORE Toys for Tots had 10+, 2011 MORE 500 had about 9 or 10. As i recall the 2010 MORE 500 had close to 20 5cars. The cars are out there, you gota watch the entry lists and sometimes everyone comes out to play. to many people racing for thier own agenda. A coalition is a great idea, but a pipe-dream. Maybe 1 or 2 shoot out races a year? Last year (2011) MORE drew 17 5-1600s out to the Balls out 250. Maybe if we get MORE and some dedicated contingency we could have a big money race.
No sure where you are getting your numbers but: Mint 400 less than 10, MORE T4T less than 10, MORE 500 15 showed up... just wanted to get that out there. Im codriving at the SS300 in one of the 2 cars entered, not too exciting know its 1st or 2nd guaranteed.
 

QurtysLyn

Well-Known Member
It seemed like BITD had that change of rules only for 2011. During 2011 we bought our Ecotec thinking it was legal. Some say a miss print, who knows. We made many phone calls and typed lots of emails back and forth to BITD asking if the any 4 cyl. Motor would b ok, and they said yes. That's obviously not the case anymore. We have now designed our car around the Eco.
I have the same problem, all my designs are using a Subaru motor. So I'm building it anyway, I don't want to redesign the whole back end of my car, and I don't want the bill that comes with a Type IV. Maybe all of us with other motors will just have to get together to race.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
I used to have a type 4 in my DD till it blew up. Definitely a better sounding motor than anything else out there. I miss that motor a lot. I would love to race in this class some day and I think the rules are fine the way they are. A big type 4 will out drive the ecotec all day long. If an org does let the same ecotec engine that the 10 cars run into class 5, people will start complaining about the power disadvantage and want to hot rod the eco. I would very much like to see the class stay air cooled. Don't build a car the way you want it and tell everybody else to conform to your car, build it to the rules already on paper. Should the class be opened up to any wheelbase and a-arms as well?
 

Bryan J

Well-Known Member
No sure where you are getting your numbers but: Mint 400 less than 10, MORE T4T less than 10, MORE 500 15 showed up... just wanted to get that out there. Im codriving at the SS300 in one of the 2 cars entered, not too exciting know its 1st or 2nd guaranteed.
9 for the mint and 9 for T4T, sorry for the miscount
 

VIGILANTE

Member
I used to have a type 4 in my DD till it blew up. Definitely a better sounding motor than anything else out there. I miss that motor a lot. I would love to race in this class some day and I think the rules are fine the way they are. A big type 4 will out drive the ecotec all day long. If an org does let the same ecotec engine that the 10 cars run into class 5, people will start complaining about the power disadvantage and want to hot rod the eco. I would very much like to see the class stay air cooled. Don't build a car the way you want it and tell everybody else to conform to your car, build it to the rules already on paper. Should the class be opened up to any wheelbase and a-arms as well?
I don't know if you read my previous quote but some of us did build our cars based on the rules and then they were changed. My plans are to run a stock seeled or tagged Ecotec motor. Even you just said a type 4 would run away from that, so what's the problem? I'm not trying to call you out or be a dick I'm just telling where in coming from.
 

ksmith

Well-Known Member
I don't know if you read my previous quote but some of us did build our cars based on the rules and then they were changed. My plans are to run a stock seeled or tagged Ecotec motor. Even you just said a type 4 would run away from that, so what's the problem? I'm not trying to call you out or be a dick I'm just telling where in coming from.
The only organization I know of that HAD the rules allowing ANY four cylinder was BITD. Just to clarify no other org that I know of would allow anything other than a VW air cooled. Although I think SCORE allows a water cooled VW based motor now.

That being said we didn't build our car to class 5 specs because where we race there are NO class 5's that means we race Class 1, Class 3000 or sportsman.
I am fine with that and leaving 5 Unlimited air cooled is not a problem for us. We have been racing class 1 in the Vorra series for 3 years now and we have finished on the podium in every race since we built the car. Sure, everyone has more power than us in the class but we FINISH and have a ton of fun doing it.

Like Texas Baja said earlier, It sure is nice having a civilized conversation on the internet. No internet bashing. What a concept :) I sure am enjoying seeing all of the pics and learning more about what cars are still out there and who's racing where. Keep up the pictures guys.
 

ErikIrvine

Well-Known Member
I agree, I am enjoying reading this thread, and like hearing all the other class 5 guys chime in. I have a class 5 legal car I am running an 091 and 2.4L type IV, economy style!. Overall I think it should stay the same but I do agree with a lot of the counter arguments too. Best quote IMO is this one;
Don't build a car the way you want it and tell everybody else to conform to your car, build it to the rules already on paper.
 

bajabird

Well-Known Member
Just finished norra in the 1970 convertible with type 4 and 091.
pictures later.

Great thread going on.....

Class 5 open is on the trailer to go home for baja 1000 prep, norra car to return to prerunning in baja south.
 

steve0we

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by tapeworm

Don't build a car the way you want it and tell everybody else to conform to your car, build it to the rules already on paper.

I agree and disagree. Silverstate this weekend is a perfect example of most races. 2 racers at the event. Most race promotors put on races for racers. Casey would listen to us as a group if we decided to make changes.

1. We have established that the fastest guys in the class dont feel that the ecotec or the ford motor are an advantage in the class and would stay with the unlimited air cooled motors.

2. If we allowed SEALED 4 bangers that would fit into the class 3000 / 10 rules, and keep unlimited air cooled as is in the class, that would give many of us the option to run multiple classes. It would also allow the people wanting to run the ford combo the option of making a few bucks from Ford, who is the only company truely supporting desert racing at this time.

3. Its pretty simple for Casey and others to change the rules for lets say 2 years. If after 2 seasons, the car count isnt up, we dont like the changes we do a rule change and put it back to todays rules. Any of the cars that wont meet the backdated revision will run other classes anyways. This class isnt like other classes, the guys that already have cars can run either motor. If your building a car, not much is going to change, and it wouldnt be that difficult to convert a car in either direction.

What do we have to lose by change? NOTHING! up the car count, let me have pump gas and lets go race. If not, myself and others will continue to race, just in other classes. We all love the class and want to see it grow, some of us dont have the $$$ in this economy to keep it the way it is.

Thoughts?
 

jps1145

Well-Known Member
I feel like class 5U is a VW class. Granted, about the only thing left on some of these high dollar 5 cars is a VW motor. Even the body parts are fiberglass knock offs that have been modified. The suspension on some of these cars may be beam in concept, but no where close to VW. If you change the powerplant, you don't have a 5 car anymore.
I'm a VW guy and race a VW because I love these little old cars.
 

ErikIrvine

Well-Known Member
Steve0we - I think those are all valid points. I still disagree (next the beam/trailing arm front will be on the choping block) but.....I do like the idea of a trial year, maybe two to see if it makes a difference, see how much people actually object, and see if we can get the car count up. Would all the non-standard 5 style cars agree on a single series to run, then get the buy-in of the organizer, and invite all the 5 guys to come race with hopes of good car counts? Let the numbers speak for themselves instead of all of our mixed opinions. I'd show up to some of those races instead of the random ones I choose now.
 

Baja Jim

Well-Known Member
While I am leaving class 5 soon. I still love the class and want to see it grow. Steve I see your point, but this is the flaw that I see with allowing the eco-tech and Ford in class 5. What happens when all of these cars are continually beat by big type 4's? Then the eco-tech guys will be showing up at races to race for 2nd and 3rd? No they will either stop racing in the class or say that the type 4 cc size needs to be reduced. Remember the class 5 UNLIMITED. I really want to see the class grow and it is obvious that many do. I wish I had the answer. Keep the conversation going
 

AMS RACING

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by tapeworm

Don't build a car the way you want it and tell everybody else to conform to your car, build it to the rules already on paper.

I agree and disagree. Silverstate this weekend is a perfect example of most races. 2 racers at the event. Most race promotors put on races for racers. Casey would listen to us as a group if we decided to make changes.

1. We have established that the fastest guys in the class dont feel that the ecotec or the ford motor are an advantage in the class and would stay with the unlimited air cooled motors.

2. If we allowed SEALED 4 bangers that would fit into the class 3000 / 10 rules, and keep unlimited air cooled as is in the class, that would give many of us the option to run multiple classes. It would also allow the people wanting to run the ford combo the option of making a few bucks from Ford, who is the only company truely supporting desert racing at this time.

3. Its pretty simple for Casey and others to change the rules for lets say 2 years. If after 2 seasons, the car count isnt up, we dont like the changes we do a rule change and put it back to todays rules. Any of the cars that wont meet the backdated revision will run other classes anyways. This class isnt like other classes, the guys that already have cars can run either motor. If your building a car, not much is going to change, and it wouldnt be that difficult to convert a car in either direction.

What do we have to lose by change? NOTHING! up the car count, let me have pump gas and lets go race. If not, myself and others will continue to race, just in other classes. We all love the class and want to see it grow, some of us dont have the $$$ in this economy to keep it the way it is.

Thoughts?

Steve, I am one of the two cars racing the Silver State 300 this weekend. Casey has approached me about doing something for the Class 5s to get more of them to come to BITD. He is very open minded to change, but like the hart core Class 5 guys I feel a Class 5 is a VW and needs to stay VW. I race the class because it is one of the last nostalgia race cars out there that are really fast. I've thought about going Class 10 or 3000 until then my Class 5 will stay VW. I should be sitting down with Casey after this race to put some ideas together. Jim, I would like to get your input on this. I want to do everthing to get the Class 5 Coalition going again. Everyones input would be very helpful. Thanks. By the way this thread is getting very interesting
 

dirtslinger

Well-Known Member
Well I thought I would throw a couple pictures in here. This is my old pre-runner that I just finished upgrading yesterday. I don't plan on racing class 5 with it, maybe a couple sportsman races here and there and my wife is racing the Powder Puff in it this year. I went with a V-6 just for fun and reliability. BTW: I like class 5 the way it is, VW based.
 

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QurtysLyn

Well-Known Member
The reason mine is designed to use a Subaru powerplant is all about the money. I can't afford a Type IV motor. I knew going in I would be underpowered compared to the big Type IV guys, but I never intended to out run them. I just intend to be there at the end.

When I designed the car, it was legal by BITD rules, and I have permission from BOR to run it (they're grouping me with the 10's anyway, if I don't run in sportsman. We only have one other 5.) I don't have a problem if Class 5 wants to stay Air Cooled, I'll run sportsman when I head down south, but I'm still going to run my Subaru.
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
SteveOwe, I agree with everything you said and I think your point about a 2 year trial is a great idea. Never thought of it.

Jim Anderson, I disagree with you that when all the 5 open guys beat the ford or chevy powered cars that they will want the type 4 cc's limited. Obviously I could be wrong but, in order for you to be right there has to be a lot of cars racing with fords, chevy's and vw's to see who continually dominates and then come to that conclusion to make such a request.

Eric, I disagree with you statement because if the chopping block statement was brought up that would be a class 3000 or 10 car. Again no one is trying to make 5 open racers change their engine or suspension.

If 5 open, and class 3000 classes combined it would :
raise competition amongst racers
raise the prize money for the podium finishers
bring out more 5 open racers and more 3000 cars to win big pots
settle whether the 5 open big type 4 is superior or not

If they are not combined:
Competition will stay non existent
people will not race because no one else is racing
people will not prep their 5 cars because what would be the point if theres no one to race.
winning wont mean squat because you only beat 2 to 3 other guys
payback for winning? none
These are facts


Why are the pure 5 open guys so opposed to racing against a non 5 car? All I hear when one does well is how many class 10, 12's and 3000 cars they smoked. Why not get the payback for doing it in future races. Seriously, what is their to lose?

When I raced in the T4T race in december there were 10 or so 5 cars, and 15 class 3000 racers . If the class was combined with 5 open that would have made 25 cars racing for 1 money. I would have came in 5th if classes were combined behind aj martin, belk and the cbr 3000 car, and wendell mortenson. Since I raced 3000 I came in 2nd and took home $450 bucks which was great. The 1st 3000 car would have come in 3rd. Think of the money the 1st, 2nd, would have been if classes were combined. The finishing times were close and I was mixingt it up with 3000 and 5 cars all day long, it was a blast. Granted this race was an anomoly that that many 5 cars and 3000 cars happened to be racing the same day but if a little organization and effort was put forth this could happen 3 to 4 times a year. And make racing/winning rewarding.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
It is very true that the eco and the ford will not be able to hang with the type 4's, and I can just see in the future that the VW motors will be restricted and become time bombs, or the eco and ford will get modified and become less reliable and put the type 4 to shame. I really love the VW classes and would just like to see them stay the same. It would be really cool to see a huge field of 5 cars out there, but this class is way too nostalgic to change it. I wish that there was a clear answer to increase entries.

I don't have a dog in this fight since my baja isn't a race car, but I will say this:
I am opposed to seeing the rules change, but I would still race this class if they did.

I do hope to race in this class some day, and it will be with VW power.
 

Power Monkey

Well-Known Member
Class 5U is the classic Aircooled class. If you want to grow your Echo based/3000 class I say go for it! Just please leave the 5U class in peace. BTW I don't see any 3000s at the SS. ? What's with that?
 

Wendell #527

Well-Known Member
If class 5 ever goes to a water cooled class then I won't be racing in it. Maybe somebody will want to buy my 5 car and convert it to whatever the fad of the day is, but for me, I'd be done with it. You know, A-arm front ends need less maintenance than beam, too. Might as well allow A arms in class 5, too. Also the body, most 5 car bodies aren't really VW bodies and they cost alot so might as well not require them, too. Don't you guys see what you're trying to kill?
 
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