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Class 5 only

Baja Jim

Well-Known Member
i made it to page 11 ,I'm sure I'm not missing anything else after that .as far as I'm concerned my type-4 is the cheapest part of racing my car ,if you take care of them they will last a lot longer than you think allowing water pumpers of any kind will let the money gods put in a scat -v-4 and he will go by ya like you were a spectator or put a Wankel motor in and yes with the trannys today a Wankel will work .class 5 has grown a lot sense the first race i started, it has been won by small type 1 small type 4,s and some pretty out dated cars ,theres always going to be a few that will out spend the rest it happens in every class {deal with it **http://cdn3.race-
.com/forum/images/mexico-flag.png ¡Ay, caramba!****
¡Ay, caramba!** and leave the class alone its the only one left that hasn't be f------ upped by rule changes .but thats my op pion may it be right or wrong I'm sticking with it .
I agree. As I stated before! Cheapest race engine I've ever ran. I'm sorry that some guys have had bad luck with type 4's but someone should start a post about eco-tech failures and I think you would be shocked! If you don't just factor in cost of engine but cost to get to race and support you may find that that cheap eco-tech ain't so cheap for all those guys. If your in favor of sealed engine don't do it in unlimited class
 

Zac Reish

Well-Known Member
Jim, I know you had great luck with your type 4 but you can't compare the cost of running a race gas type 4 to a pump gas ecotec, or purchase cost. bought mine used with 30,000 miles for either $8 or $1200, tuned it for 200. $6000 to do the initial swap engine and tuning included. How much did it cost you to build your type 4? I put an estimated 7000 miles on it in the last 3 years. I blew it up last weekend. I have 50 engines to choose from between $500 and $1,000, (on ebay) and then a couple hundred bucks to tune.This is not an exageration. Engine is replaced. You cant compare the 2 price wise. If you could I would have a type 4 in my car. I could seriuosly if I wanted an engine with 50,000 easy miles on it I could replace and tune another engine for less than 1 grand.
 

jps1145

Well-Known Member
RANT.... I cant seem to get my 2460 T4 dialed in. What size idle jets are you using? ive got mine at 60
the plugs look good, but still pops during deceleration, mixture screws are clean. Also what oil temp and cylinder temp should be normal? Thanks, Rant over... go 5U!!
If you're idling fine without popping and accelerating well, you probably have some leaking exhaust flanges at the head.
 

JRV 511

Well-Known Member
Jim, I know you had great luck with your type 4 but you can't compare the cost of running a race gas type 4 to a pump gas ecotec, or purchase cost. bought mine used with 30,000 miles for either $8 or $1200, tuned it for 200. $6000 to do the initial swap engine and tuning included. How much did it cost you to build your type 4? I put an estimated 7000 miles on it in the last 3 years. I blew it up last weekend. I have 50 engines to choose from between $500 and $1,000, (on ebay) and then a couple hundred bucks to tune.This is not an exageration. Engine is replaced. You cant compare the 2 price wise. If you could I would have a type 4 in my car. I could seriuosly if I wanted an engine with 50,000 easy miles on it I could replace and tune another engine for less than 1 grand.
Don't want to get involved in a pissing match but Zac has a very valid point , there has been some ecotec engine failers ,I beleive it has way more to do with the tune and or computer choice than the motor , I raced the car formally known as frogger before it was frogger, tuned by Danzio , purchased on ebay for $800 bucks ,won class 4 at the Baja 1000 , ran that bugger all night long at 6 to 7000 rpms and it never missed a beat , that same eng ran and won race after race until the compression got low in a couple of cylinders , then it was changed by the new owner.
The ten car we won the championship in last year ,by better that a 1000 points , ran an ebay purchased ecotec, used engine and I think it was around $1200 , same engine raced all season on $3.45 per gallon E85 , No issues !! That eng sits under the work bench at tom's shop ready to go .
Point being : if some guys want to run a sealed Ecotec thinking it is a better value I say let them race with us type 1 and 4 guys what can it hurt , we know the HP and torque numbers they make , so I say what the hell , I know in my case I stopped racing mine cause I was pissed off with the way the class 5 coalition deal turned out , but if we start to see the class 5 entries go up than I will not have a choice but to dust the thing off and go race it.
 

rusco

Well-Known Member
Don't want to get involved in a pissing match but Zac has a very valid point , there has been some ecotec engine failers ,I beleive it has way more to do with the tune and or computer choice than the motor , I raced the car formally known as frogger before it was frogger, tuned by Danzio , purchased on ebay for $800 bucks ,won class 4 at the Baja 1000 , ran that bugger all night long at 6 to 7000 rpms and it never missed a beat , that same eng ran and won race after race until the compression got low in a couple of cylinders , then it was changed by the new owner.
The ten car we won the championship in last year ,by better that a 1000 points , ran an ebay purchased ecotec, used engine and I think it was around $1200 , same engine raced all season on $3.45 per gallon E85 , No issues !! That eng sits under the work bench at tom's shop ready to go .
Point being : if some guys want to run a sealed Ecotec thinking it is a better value I say let them race with us type 1 and 4 guys what can it hurt , we know the HP and torque numbers they make , so I say what the hell , I know in my case I stopped racing mine cause I was pissed off with the way the class 5 coalition deal turned out , but if we start to see the class 5 entries go up than I will not have a choice but to dust the thing off and go race it.
Well put! The reason my car sits lonely in the garage is a motor factor. As I stated before there is 1 VW game in my town and I have zero confidence in this motor (my original set up was from a SoCal builder). If I make the 3+k invenstment to show up to a race, I want the best engine option to finish. There is NOTHING wrong with type 1 or type 4 power, however, when your are not living in the "hot-bed" there ain't a whole lot of support to run these motors. If I lived in SoCal, I'd have no issue running VW however, living 1000 miles away like Steve Owe, we have reached decision time whether to jump ship for ECOnomical reasons.
FYI, At our local track, most VW guys have switched over to ecotechs after blowing up there VW's. Could be the local builder? They run the piss out of there JY Ecos with very few problems.

Vote: Sealed ecotech option only. 2 year trial starting 2013.
 

Baja Belk

Well-Known Member
All I know (from experience), is that if you combine 5U and 3000 - competitor and commissioner approval aside - Pistol Pete and Fishdood will accuse you of grievances akin to manslaughter or genocide. As far as internet forum juries go, I am as evil as Hitler or Saddam for inviting open competition between 5 and 3000. Needless to say, I will NOT be bringing up combining those 2 classes gain. However, if the decision was made and agreed upon by all parties (ha!), I would gladly race against Class 3's if the starting orders were combined with separate class purses.

Where are all the 5's for the MORE 500? 2 years ago there were almost 20, we were the largest class in the race, and Jim and I got 2nd overall out of 160+ total entries. It was a blast. Only 5 entered this year? Regardless, Wendy is starting, and myself and Dave Bonner are doing the middle and final legs in the red/white/black car. Hopefully the entries keep coming!
 

JRV 511

Well-Known Member
All I know (from experience), is that if you combine 5U and 3000 - competitor and commissioner approval aside - Pistol Pete and Fishdood will accuse you of grievances akin to manslaughter or genocide. As far as internet forum juries go, I am as evil as Hitler or Saddam for inviting open competition between 5 and 3000. Needless to say, I will NOT be bringing up combining those 2 classes gain. However, if the decision was made and agreed upon by all parties (ha!), I would gladly race against Class 3's if the starting orders were combined with separate class purses.

Where are all the 5's for the MORE 500? 2 years ago there were almost 20, we were the largest class in the race, and Jim and I got 2nd overall out of 160+ total entries. It was a blast. Only 5 entered this year? Regardless, Wendy is starting, and myself and Dave Bonner are doing the middle and final legs in the red/white/black car. Hopefully the entries keep coming!
If I'm not mistaken we are NOT talking about racing with class 3000 , we all know that would be a joke , we were talking about doing a trial run on allowing the 5 cars to use a sealed ecotec as an engine option to get the entry numbers back up
 

TexasBaja

Well-Known Member
Vote: Sealed ecotech option only. 2 year trial starting 2013.
Would you also consider allowing the Sealed Ford engine as well?

For the record everyone is making very valid points here and I enjoy reading each and everyone of them. At the beginning of the thread I stated that 5U should remain Air Cooled and we decided to go ahead and go water cooled with our car and go to Class 3000. The reason is because we will soon have 1 if not 2 class 10 cars in our racing family that will be running Ford engines. It is a no brain er that we all have the same engine. Less parts to carry around in the race trailer.
The more I read about this and have time to think about it its not a bad idea. I am not talking about combining classes. If the decision is made to keep 5U air cooled then it was a team effort and we will be racing a 5UWC in class 3000 and have no problems with it. There are a lot more of you guys on the west coast then there is here in Texas and you guys will ultimately be making the final decision but what ever decision is made I know of one Race Org here in Texas will follow.

Keep the discussion going guys and lets hear some more ideas and opinions.
 

Baja Jim

Well-Known Member
I really should not be posting about future of 5u as I am leaving the class, but I love the class and do want it to grow! My concern is that sealed motors won't compete and when guys get tired of loosing to big air cooled motors are they going to ask for them to be down sized? I talked to Andy at Majors today and he has fresh type 4 available for 7k
 

JRV 511

Well-Known Member
I really should not be posting about future of 5u as I am leaving the class, but I love the class and do want it to grow! My concern is that sealed motors won't compete and when guys get tired of loosing to big air cooled motors are they going to ask for them to be down sized? I talked to Andy at Majors today and he has fresh type 4 available for 7k
I think thats why we are talking about a two year test run on the rules , I have a 3 ltr injected type four , and I love it, but the rule would just be an option , If they don't like how it performs than the only other option will be to go back to the air cooled engines
 
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rusco

Well-Known Member
Texas BajaWould you also consider allowing the Sealed Ford engine as well?

Can you run a ford in class 3000? I am not opposed to Ford, however in example of BITD class 1100 the promoter aligned this option with their sponsors requiring a new sealed motor from Ford and ECU package from BMS. You are then looking at around 8-10K package. Right?

Jim: Thanks for checking in on the T4, 7K motor. The 2 year test idea would sort things out. Most competitive teams would keep their big T4$, however if the (Eco package) would bring out more teams to the races (big Rant) why not try?
I would guess that there would be a handful of teams convert and a few more teams would show up that are already converted. The die-hard VW guys will continue to show up to few races per year regardless.
 

12LaPaz

Well-Known Member
If class 5 ever goes to a water cooled class then I won't be racing in it. Maybe somebody will want to buy my 5 car and convert it to whatever the fad of the day is, but for me, I'd be done with it. You know, A-arm front ends need less maintenance than beam, too. Might as well allow A arms in class 5, too. Also the body, most 5 car bodies aren't really VW bodies and they cost alot so might as well not require them, too. Don't you guys see what you're trying to kill?
No they dont see what they are tring to kill !!
I think you should pick a class you cant afford to race then request the promotors change the rules for "YOU"..... building and racing a class 5 car has Always been expensive, its simple if you cant afford to race class 5 pick another class, maybe a class 9 would better fit your budget.... Racing any class has always been about money, that will never change..... You want to take take one of the last remaining untouched classes and ruin it so guys with no clue can race their $500.00 pump gas motors............... Racing IS about money.....if you cant afford to race without changing the rules to fit your budget then maybe you shouldnt be racing at all.

There has always been 2 kinds of racers

1) The guy that builds his car to the rules and races it

2) The guy that cant afford to build his car to the rules and has to request a rule change because he cant afford to race in the first place

Be honest with yourself.... you knew you couldnt afford to build and race that car, so why now try to ruin it for the rest of the class....... Leave class 5 alone..... its cool just the way it is..... I would say putting anything but a air cooled engine in a class 5 is gay......... but I wouldnt want to offend them....
 

AMS RACING

Well-Known Member
No they dont see what they are tring to kill !!
I think you should pick a class you cant afford to race then request the promotors change the rules for "YOU"..... building and racing a class 5 car has Always been expensive, its simple if you cant afford to race class 5 pick another class, maybe a class 9 would better fit your budget.... Racing any class has always been about money, that will never change..... You want to take take one of the last remaining untouched classes and ruin it so guys with no clue can race their $500.00 pump gas motors............... Racing IS about money.....if you cant afford to race without changing the rules to fit your budget then maybe you shouldnt be racing at all.

There has always been 2 kinds of racers

1) The guy that builds his car to the rules and races it

2) The guy that cant afford to build his car to the rules and has to request a rule change because he cant afford to race in the first place

Be honest with yourself.... you knew you couldnt afford to build and race that car, so why now try to ruin it for the rest of the class....... Leave class 5 alone..... its cool just the way it is..... I would say putting anything but a air cooled engine in a class 5 is gay......... but I wouldnt want to offend them....
Thank you, very well said. No one said you can't put a bug body on a class 10 or class 3000. A Class 5 is what it is and I am very proud to race one.
 

VIGILANTE

Member
No they dont see what they are tring to kill !!
I think you should pick a class you cant afford to race then request the promotors change the rules for "YOU"..... building and racing a class 5 car has Always been expensive, its simple if you cant afford to race class 5 pick another class, maybe a class 9 would better fit your budget.... Racing any class has always been about money, that will never change..... You want to take take one of the last remaining untouched classes and ruin it so guys with no clue can race their $500.00 pump gas motors............... Racing IS about money.....if you cant afford to race without changing the rules to fit your budget then maybe you shouldnt be racing at all.

There has always been 2 kinds of racers

1) The guy that builds his car to the rules and races it

2) The guy that cant afford to build his car to the rules and has to request a rule change because he cant afford to race in the first place

Be honest with yourself.... you knew you couldnt afford to build and race that car, so why now try to ruin it for the rest of the class....... Leave class 5 alone..... its cool just the way it is..... I would say putting anything but a air cooled engine in a class 5 is gay......... but I wouldnt want to offend them....
No one on here is trying to kill the class. All that is going on are people tossing around ideas on how to make the class bigger because we love it. Some people have gotten out of racing the class because they can't afford to race it anymore. The main expense on the 5's is the motor. There for some people have thrown out ideas on different motor packages. I believe the class is dieing slowly on its own because there have been no changes. Offroad racing is about bragging rights. The only two kinda racers i know are: either the ones who enjoy racing with 2 to 3 other cars and have a guarnteed podium finish or the racers that just plain enjoy competition and dont care how it comes. I dont think running a sealed motor will be that big of a disadvantage. Ya the people who are running them might have less power but the odds will be that they are their at the finish. Thats what matters. People are just proposing a trial for 2 years. If the idea is not seen through, most of us are going to race anyway in other classes. Ill be one of the gays who are going to race with a sealed ecotec anyway.
 
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SKM Built

Well-Known Member
If you want to race you better have the money. I built my 5u three years ago and have raced 12 races with a 2332 and 091. I will nsot complain cause thats what i can afford. Buy a score rule book and build a car to the rules just like I did and everyone else that race! Stop trying to make this class fit your budget, type 1s are affordable. I may not hang with Belk, Anderson, Martin,or some other big type 4 cars but if they slip I will always be right there. Kinda bold to make threats when you don't have a car, build a legit 5 car and come out.
 

Power Monkey

Well-Known Member
No they dont see what they are tring to kill !!
I think you should pick a class you cant afford to race then request the promotors change the rules for "YOU"..... building and racing a class 5 car has Always been expensive, its simple if you cant afford to race class 5 pick another class, maybe a class 9 would better fit your budget.... Racing any class has always been about money, that will never change..... You want to take take one of the last remaining untouched classes and ruin it so guys with no clue can race their $500.00 pump gas motors............... Racing IS about money.....if you cant afford to race without changing the rules to fit your budget then maybe you shouldnt be racing at all.

There has always been 2 kinds of racers

1) The guy that builds his car to the rules and races it

2) The guy that cant afford to build his car to the rules and has to request a rule change because he cant afford to race in the first place

Be honest with yourself.... you knew you couldnt afford to build and race that car, so why now try to ruin it for the rest of the class....... Leave class 5 alone..... its cool just the way it is..... I would say putting anything but a air cooled engine in a class 5 is gay......... but I wouldnt want to offend them....
Love it! Amen!
 

frostbite36

Capt. Hindsight
DON'T CHANGE THE CLASS rules...
 

Baja Jim

Well-Known Member
I want to stop posting but I can't! What I keep hearing from the Eco-tech proponents is 5U is loosing cars because of engine cost? Racing is not cheap period. Let's look at the facts
1 convert car to Eco-tech fab $6,000
2 purchase said Craig's list motor $1,500
3. Wiring harness exhaust and adapter plate $2,000
4. Cost to test and set up car $500
Craig's list motor good for 6 to 8 races replace $1,500

Type 4 option
1. Buy type 4 from Majors that I mentioned and similar to one I bought $7,000
2. Leak down and prep each race $350
3. Major prep 8-10 races $3,000

Not much difference in cost, type 4 is bad a$$ and fast easy to drive and true to class 5u. Try not to jump on bandwagon for sake of jumping. If fuel cost is an issue build de-tuned type 4 and it will run forever and be cheep to run! Done with rant and good luck to all!!! Viva class 5u
 
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rusco

Well-Known Member
I want to stop posting but I can't! What I keep hearing from the Eco-tech proponents is 5U is loosing cars because of engine cost? Racing is not cheap period. Let's look at the facts
1 convert car to Eco-tech fab $6,000
2 purchase said Craig's list motor $1,500
3. Wiring harness exhaust and adapter plate $2,000
4. Cost to test and set up car $500
Craig's list motor good for 6 to 8 races replace $1,500

Type 4 option
1. Buy type 4 from Majors that I mentioned and similar to one I bought $7,000
2. Leak down and prep each race $350
3. Major prep 8-10 races $3,000

Not much difference in cost, type 4 is bad a$$ and fast easy to drive and true to class 5u. Try not to jump on bandwagon for sake of jumping. If fuel cost is an issue build de-tuned type 4 and it will run forever and be cheep to run! Done with rant and good luck to all!!! Viva class 5u
As a pro-eco tech guy, I am not 100% sold on the package. Jim you are convincing me on the Type 4 thing. When I raced years ago with Jordan racing we bought the first FAT type 4 for a class 5. We did this after our big bore type 1 blew up at the SF 250 within a mile or two of the finish while having a 20-30 minute lead. T4 motor was great / expensive but only had a few issues.

This said while reading the last few posts. There is no need to call out the H20guys. Don't forget that Voekler won a SCORE championship with an H2O rabbit motor just a few years back. Yes, racing is expensive. But the bigger question is: "Is running against only 1-2 cars really racing??"
 
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