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Class10_???

offroadracer516

Well-Known Member
Good topic Robin Hood, but in RDC fashion, it went off-topic and downhill fairly quickly. Let's use some actual facts and numbers here for perspective (again, I'm not making any claims of beating a 10 car). Here are some recent finishing times to compare (1st place car from respective classes):

2019 V2R results:
TT Menzies 08:10:35
1500 Hutchins 08:19:01
1000 Morgan 09:22:18
T900 Blurton 09:44:28 (behind only two class 10 cars)

2019 SS300 results:
TT Terzo 05:15:11
1500 Hutchins 05:22:05
1000 McMullen 05:45:59
T900 Blurton 05:50:41 (again, finished behind only two 10 cars) And 5 minutes behind the first place 10 car.

These are the facts when comparing speeds of both classes over the course of a race. I believe one day, if 10 cars stay the same, the "golf carts" will eventually start beating some 10 cars. As goofy AF as that may seem, or look, the UTV class is progressing and if others do not, it will eventually pass them up. That's not debatable. Again, Today, 10 cars all day long, but lets not stick our heads in the sand and pretend today's UTV's are still the same old Yamaha Rhino bouncing around the course.
Again those are graded roads lol. Smooth. Nothing ruff to it. I would hope with all the power they have they would keep up. But change the course to barstow,lucerne,plaster city,jean. I bet the times widen in a massive way.
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
Who cares?
If you don't, then troll somewhere else. Do you really believe it is the only the factory money that is growing the class.


RDC is getting pretty boring when the guys that only post on their employer's time aren't working 😂 so we need something to discuss.
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
Again those are graded roads lol. Smooth. Nothing ruff to it. I would hope with all the power they have they would keep up. But change the course to barstow,lucerne,plaster city,jean. I bet the times widen in a massive way.
We all know you will die defending 1600 and the more power to you for being a die-hard. But, you do realize that a 1600 car currently has as much hp as a golf kart?
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
UTV hasn’t been the death of any class. Very few people have left another class to jump into a UTV. The UTV’s have brought more new people in, but they aren’t killing any classes. Maybe a couple 1600 guys have gone the UTV route, but as far as budget desert racing goes very few UTV’s race the regional series. There are a lot of UTV series out there that most of us don’t pay attention to and those racers were never going to jump into off road racing to begin with.

For what it’s worth, class 10 is the only limited class to ever overall the baja 1000. So until a UTV does that, they will never steal the crown from class 10.
 

JerryB

Well-Known Member
UTV hasn’t been the death of any class. Very few people have left another class to jump into a UTV. The UTV’s have brought more new people in, but they aren’t killing any classes. Maybe a couple 1600 guys have gone the UTV route, but as far as budget desert racing goes very few UTV’s race the regional series. There are a lot of UTV series out there that most of us don’t pay attention to and those racers were never going to jump into off road racing to begin with.

For what it’s worth, class 10 is the only limited class to ever overall the baja 1000. So until a UTV does that, they will never steal the crown from class 10.
Agreed, the UTV class has not proven to be the death of any class, there may be a few examples of this over the years but not to many and I don't foresee this being one of them. I think anyone who is actively involved in racing for any significant amount of time will agree, we all race what we enjoy and/or can afford. Just because one guy can afford to race a 6100 and another a class 9, doesn't make them any more important to the sport, nor does it mean the 6100 driver is having anymore fun than the 9 car driver. In fact, I would argue this point, I have worked for three different teams over the years in TT, one privately funded the other 2 factory support. I can personally attest to the fact I have had just as much, if not more fun racing stock mini, MX, Jeepspeed and UTV.

Isn't that what it's all about anyway? You sure as hell aren't going to make any money doing this.
 

offroadracer516

Well-Known Member
We all know you will die defending 1600 and the more power to you for being a die-hard. But, you do realize that a 1600 car currently has as much hp as a golf kart?
We don't have over 160hp And die hard 1600 or not. What I speak is true...They don't call BITD blade it to death for no reason.
 

bigjeep13

Well-Known Member
So the assumption is that class 10 cars are not evolving? I keep hearing about the evolution of the UTV but no one is talking about the fact that class 10 is constantly innovating.
 

ht racing

Well-Known Member
Even today a purpose built UTV can build a frame similar to a 10 and take the same hit. Believe me, many 10 guys have complained and had their pride damaged, because they couldn't take a hit either. There is nothing keeping a UTV rear bumper from being built the same as a 10 car.

Comparing 10 and one isn't valid, there is a big $$$ difference to run competitively among the top guys between the two classes. My point is "when" the UTVs become as fast, they will be less to build and prep and there is currently more sponsorship money available. A UTV has the advantage of running a turbo and 4X4 at a lower cost than a class 10 build.
lets start over.......what do you race and have you ever raced in a quality built 10 car?
 

ht racing

Well-Known Member
You can see the progression..... Here are some times from 2018, including Pahrump 250 (which is shorter course and rougher, so we can't claim the UTV's only do well in the notoriously smooth SS33 or V2R courses or just the tight twisty stuff):

2018 V2R
TT Angal 08:18:31
1500 Parkhouse 08:56:56
1000 McMullen 09:49:42
T900 Blurton 10:24:25

2018 Pahrump 250
TT Thompson 03:38:47
1500 Dean 03:55:39
1000 Fox 04:13:44
T900 Blurton 04:26:05
you are taking the best finish and trying to say there faster. 5 faster 10 cars could of broke or whatever. 10 cars are stuck behind some slow 6100 and 1 cars you cant just say here is the facts from a couple of races. lets do it with class 1 cars and class 10 does that mean we get a little better motor and we beat all the class 1 cars? no it does not. the entire compare thing is stupid AF.
 

bigjeep13

Well-Known Member
Even today a purpose built UTV can build a frame similar to a 10 and take the same hit. Believe me, many 10 guys have complained and had their pride damaged, because they couldn't take a hit either. There is nothing keeping a UTV rear bumper from being built the same as a 10 car.

Comparing 10 and one isn't valid, there is a big $$$ difference to run competitively among the top guys between the two classes. My point is "when" the UTVs become as fast, they will be less to build and prep and there is currently more sponsorship money available. A UTV has the advantage of running a turbo and 4X4 at a lower cost than a class 10 build.
Cost to build and prep NEVER comes down as a class gets faster and more competitive. The evolution of speed in UTVs is directly correlated to custom parts and those parts cost big $.The argument about UTVs being faster and cheaper is not a valid one.
 

Racer Tim

Well-Known Member
Good topic Robin Hood, but in RDC fashion, it went off-topic and downhill fairly quickly. Let's use some actual facts and numbers here for perspective (again, I'm not making any claims of beating a 10 car). Here are some recent finishing times to compare (1st place car from respective classes):

2019 V2R results:
TT Menzies 08:10:35
1500 Hutchins 08:19:01
1000 Morgan 09:22:18
T900 Blurton 09:44:28 (behind only two class 10 cars)

2019 SS300 results:
TT Terzo 05:15:11
1500 Hutchins 05:22:05
1000 McMullen 05:45:59
T900 Blurton 05:50:41 (again, finished behind only two 10 cars) And 5 minutes behind the first place 10 car.

These are the facts when comparing speeds of both classes over the course of a race. I believe one day, if 10 cars stay the same, the "golf carts" will eventually start beating some 10 cars. As goofy AF as that may seem, or look, the UTV class is progressing and if others do not, it will eventually pass them up. That's not debatable. Again, Today, 10 cars all day long, but lets not stick our heads in the sand and pretend today's UTV's are still the same old Yamaha Rhino bouncing around the course.
Actually using V2R and SS300 are both poor examples because a 10 car gets held up a lot both are one lane race tracks, i haven't looked at where the golf carts started vs where the 10 car's start but i know 10's are stuck behind faster vehicles like 6100, class 1 and slow trophy trucks and there is fewer places to pass on both of those courses, now if golf carts are starting further back in the starting order it is easier to pass the smaller slower vehicles. A good example is the heat race times from laughlin and or times from Parker where a class 10 car and a trophy truck are much closer together......i know the course isn't as rough but we could look at lap time too and you would be surprised.

The other point i think people are missing is the cost to race and prep, the winning UTV vs the winning 10 car, i'm sorry but there is no way a 1000cc turbo putting out 300hp and a factory ecotec putting out 200 hp (these number are wrong by the way but i'll use your numbers) are going to last anywhere where close to the same amount of time, Ecotecs would last easily a season or more racing, and i know of a few people that race UTV's and they replace half the car after a race and we all know there not using stock parts that are cheap.
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
lets start over.......what do you race and have you ever raced in a quality built 10 car?
Honestly, just trying to have a discussion here. I am probably as neutral and objective as anyone here. There are a lot of people posting that are fixated on the past and IMO not looking into the future.

I have owned three class 10 cars spanning a period of about 10 years. I raced a Jimco class 10 (Fortin, Honda package), for several years during the early to mid 2000's, before building a class one. I have owned two class ones cars, currently have a class one and a 1600 car that I just finished a full rebuild on. I bought the 1600 after getting a chance to race a leg in the Baja 500 and having a great time with some great memories (Thanks to Pavolka Racing). I have also raced a 6100 at Parker (Thanks to Accurate Automotive). Since pictures are worth a thousand words, I'll throw some below.

I overalled Barstow racing against Letner, in a 10 car, my first time there. So yes, I have been around the block and have raced a few rough races or two. I always felt the rough, tight, technical separated the boys from the men and it is where I could always make time.

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Do I make the cut to be part of the discussion ;)
 
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JerryB

Well-Known Member
you are taking the best finish and trying to say there faster. 5 faster 10 cars could of broke or whatever. 10 cars are stuck behind some slow 6100 and 1 cars you cant just say here is the facts from a couple of races. lets do it with class 1 cars and class 10 does that mean we get a little better motor and we beat all the class 1 cars? no it does not. the entire compare thing is stupid AF.
Insert foot in angry mouth emoji here. It's just a topic of discussion no need for name calling.
 

Rprice

Well-Known Member
you make a strong argument
no he doesn’t, all those race results he posted take place on similar terrain in middle Nevada, those courses lack miles of rough terrian and have miles of rally style roads that point to the performance advantage of AWD and turbos. And they still did not beat class10.
how about make me eat these words, I would like to see past Parker results, Baja 500, San Felipe, etc.
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
Please don't turn this thread into stats on past races. Let's stick to where the classes are going, not where they have been.
 
Here are some results from recent Baja races
2019 1000
1st 10 19:50:00.760
1st UTV 21:00:42.687

2019 San felipe
1st 10 7:50:24.025
1st UTV 8:23:51.325

2018 san felipe
1st 10 6:35:43.649
1st UTV 7:25:03.725

These have def been tough courses within the last couple years.
 

Bricoop

Well-Known Member
225/300 HP UTV might seem crazy, and unfair, but in reality it's the next step. Look how quickly Polaris has increased their HP, timing coincides with Can-Am entering the market. If SPEED is successful, I'd expect we see the big guys to follow suit with similar premium models.

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Slippery P

Well-Known Member
Please don't turn this thread into stats on past races. Let's stick to where the classes are going, not where they have been.
Class 10 is currently stagnant as far as engines go solely due to BITD rules. SCORE has jumped on board with allowing the new 2.5L but BITD refuses. In my opinion until this changes the class will see little progression. We have plenty of engine packages developed at the moment 2.4L DI Turbo, 2.5L DI N/A, 2.5L DI turbo, 1.4L DI turbo etc. Make class 10 a turbo 4cyl. Class and see how fast the cars progress.
 
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