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CODE Class 950

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
The problem is, suppliers are not stocking things like drums, heavy duty axle tubes, etc... Not enough demand and they don't want to make runs of parts that they will have to pay for up front that will sit on their shelves for long periods of time. This isn't the 1990s when there were 40 swingers showing up at La Rana or Fuds and 50+ showing up at SCORE/HDRA races. As far as I know, right now, there are no aluminum centered drums available retail. Same with race axles. Trans guy spent a couple weeks sourcing tubing in right dimensions to do some heavy axle tubes recently. Plenty of bent axles available, though.
 

ACME

Well-Known Member
Maybe Mr. Mohr can add his .02 on parts availability as a trans builder; and I believe Mr Folts can comment on the alum drum options availability (if I'm not mistaken). As you're aware, both spent some time as swingers and service a number of current racers hardware.

My last race in one was in MORE where we ran with a ton of others (but Francissss scared me off) and at that time 20+ wasn't unheard of. I know Jim averaged well over 15 cars a race well after the La Rana era and my days as a swinger. We had 5-6 alone out of our pits that ran competitively each race and SNORE had their loyal followers as well so cars were racing. Cory "Pinky" Banatilan, Mr Bolles and Bro-Jimmy got 50+ for some of the OG Big 9 races. But then at that time we used to have 20+ Class 1 cars at MORE so I think class 9 is just moving with the ebb and tide. The other issue is with 25 classes and the millennials; I think the internet pimps UTV's so that's in fashion and no one knows anything other than what's on the interweb, which is TT's and UTV's. Oh and that Alumicraft class...

My point is: Major class changes & economics park cars, especially in limited classes. Small steps like allowing alum hats or trans internals will only make a few cry for a few mins but won't detour racers. But IRS, DB's, PS, Alum Wheels meaning 4K+ in updates that create a competitive disparity in cars will. The issue is some guy or small group appeals to a promoter and the spiral starts.

Again: Just an opinion
 

J. Peel 916

Member
Jeff- I agree with what you’re saying with exception of the drums. If you’re lucky enough to get your hands on a set from a old 1600 that’s great. However a new set is hard to impossible to get from what I know. Also, a lot of money.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
A rebuilt race swing with new axles and tubes along with drums (if Folts makes any anytime soon) will cost more than the money needed to go IRS with disk brakes for most folks who aren't doing their own trans work. The parts are not as available as you think they are. Believe me, I wish they were. It has been a consideration from building a second car for the class for a couple years now. This is not opinion, we have been working through the parts issue for a while. It sucks, but right now, it is what it is. The guys that race CODE and Record decided that the switch was finally worth it. This was after a few years of talking about it. What finally convinced them to make the switch was the ease that the 11 car guys said it was to maintain the IRS cars versus the swing cars when it came to transmissions and drivelines. They literally have that data to compare it to.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
Maybe Mr. Mohr can add his .02 on parts availability as a trans builder; and I believe Mr Folts can comment on the alum drum options availability (if I'm not mistaken). As you're aware, both spent some time as swingers and service a number of current racers hardware.

My last race in one was in MORE where we ran with a ton of others (but Francissss scared me off) and at that time 20+ wasn't unheard of. I know Jim averaged well over 15 cars a race well after the La Rana era and my days as a swinger. We had 5-6 alone out of our pits that ran competitively each race and SNORE had their loyal followers as well so cars were racing. Cory "Pinky" Banatilan, Mr Bolles and Bro-Jimmy got 50+ for some of the OG Big 9 races. But then at that time we used to have 20+ Class 1 cars at MORE so I think class 9 is just moving with the ebb and tide. The other issue is with 25 classes and the millennials; I think the internet pimps UTV's so that's in fashion and no one knows anything other than what's on the interweb, which is TT's and UTV's. Oh and that Alumicraft class...

My point is: Major class changes & economics park cars, especially in limited classes. Small steps like allowing alum hats or trans internals will only make a few cry for a few mins but won't detour racers. But IRS, DB's, PS, Alum Wheels meaning 4K+ in updates that create a competitive disparity in cars will. The issue is some guy or small group appeals to a promoter and the spiral starts.

Again: Just an opinion
I’m lucky enough to be sitting on a pile of good german parts, but I would still be in support of switching to IRS... reason being, if the rules are the same as class 11 (except we allow close 3rd and 4th gears) then it’s two classes running the same parts and more racers needing them so the manufacturers and companies will have more of a demand and supply. I only know of two people willing to do aluminum hat drums, Folts and Shapley. Otherwise they are non existent.

I’ll let people know Exactly what I spend when I convert my car over yo IRS. So far I’m guessing it will be around $2000 with a lot less maintenance over time. I’ll run my car in sportsman to compare times.

I’ve got a set of good type 3 drums if anyone is looking for a pair that I will gladly sell. I also have a pair of bus drums if anyone is looking for those.
 

Mohr

Well-Known Member
Weeeelllllll???? As for axle tubes, I haven't seen a need for them...All of my customers run stock with over tubes. If your bending "heavy duty" axle tubes, I sincerely think you need to re-examine your driving style. I've built boxes for a few champions, and I can tell you they rarely bent a stock tube. As for the drums, I know I'm going to get **** for this, BUT, 4 lug stuff is plentiful and cheap...and I prefer stock axles also...plenty around...
 

ACME

Well-Known Member
Jeff- I agree with what you’re saying with exception of the drums. If you’re lucky enough to get your hands on a set from a old 1600 that’s great. However a new set is hard to impossible to get from what I know. Also, a lot of money.
Joel: Give Matt C a PM and he can tell you where he got his, I believe Folts but not 100% sure... PS The old days were fun, hope you guys are well!
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Yep, Joel, you ran 4 lug stuff back in the 90s. Got it. How much would it take a car owner to get new German 4 lug drums, stud them, and then swap out all their 5 lug stuff for 4 lug rims, say 5 fronts and 5 rears. Yeah, I know, run stockers in the front. Just like you did. By th eway, who is carrying Steel Challenger wheels now. I don't see them at Kartek anymore.
 

Lifeflight

Well-Known Member
What is lost is the little part about It being all class 11 upgrade which is true except the whole disk brake deal. I say, if IRS, then still drum brakes. 4 Lug, just like Class 11.
I don't see anyone (adding) IRS to their Swing axle car because of the shock location & geometry. So all that will need to be cut off and re done also. Yes, same shock. So are they going to go with Chomo ARMS and micro stubs because cost of modified stock parts was what drove that rule change in 1600. So just skip right past and go 1600 and 5-1600 arms and suspension. Because of COST in Fabbing up stock arms and running stock style disk brakes. Or are PRO AM hubs going to be allowed, because of cost.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
What is lost is the little part about It being all class 11 upgrade which is true except the whole disk brake deal. I say, if IRS, then still drum brakes. 4 Lug, just like Class 11.
I don't see anyone (adding) IRS to their Swing axle car because of the shock location & geometry. So all that will need to be cut off and re done also. Yes, same shock. So are they going to go with Chomo ARMS and micro stubs because cost of modified stock parts was what drove that rule change in 1600. So just skip right past and go 1600 and 5-1600 arms and suspension. Because of COST in Fabbing up stock arms and running stock style disk brakes. Or are PRO AM hubs going to be allowed, because of cost.
Disc brakes are not being allowed in Mexico. I agree with keeping it drum. If discs are allowed, allow them to be aftermarket front and rear. I say keep it drum brake for now.

Shock mounts aren’t super complex to re-do. Everyone had to re-do it when 2.5’s were allowed.

Boxed stock rear arms. They are cheap to make. The reason 1600 moved away from them was because they kept beating the bearing carriers out of the arms. A ball joint front end will limit how hard IRS suspension can be run though. The 11 cars aren’t replacing arms like the old 16 cars had to. You also can’t run a newer 1 inch longer rear arm without moving the torsion housing forward an inch to stay within the wheelbase limit. The problem with stock arms is you can only run short torsion bars with 33 inch tires.

The rules from CODE were type 1 IRS trans and type 2 cv’s. Nothing about disc brakes or longer chromoly arms.

SCORE is adopting the rules also
 

Mohr

Well-Known Member
After selling the 5 lug stuff, (provided mostly is usable) you'd probably break even...and used German drums are the best at about 10-20$ each....as for wheels, I talked to Ray at Custom and Commercial wheel in San Bernadino, and he will make them at about 95 each...You'll definitely save money in the long run....
 

ACME

Well-Known Member
Who petitioned SCORE? They never cared about class 9 before? Now it's on their mind or someone wanted it and pushed it. Smells funny...

Wait: Wasn't one of the reasons for the swap to microstubs was because there were no more good T-1 stubs left for 930 flanges? Now there are? Same with DP's and the alum drums and DB's. But the truth was an engine builder, parts suppliers and special interests who petitioned and influenced a lot of the changes. Same went for race gas in C-11, bigger shocks & steering shafts.

Both side of the argument are valid however the real issue is that an IRS car will outperform a swing axle car and will force guys to either do the spend or they will sit based on the spend as showing up half assed to a race with no chance in winning is not in most real racers minds... The other issue is this just opens pandoras box for interpretation. Next year it'll be some party instigating: Type 1 & 2 parts are expensive, scarce & old technology; so we might as well just allow 930's and microstubs...

Why not just allow the trans upgrades in the current cars if in fact, the transmission and not the drivers are the weak links?

Historically every generation of drivers has a handful that seem to be able to figure out how to go fast and make a limited cars last. The rest whine it's the hardware on the car and not the software in the seat that's the issue...
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
After selling the 5 lug stuff, (provided mostly is usable) you'd probably break even...and used German drums are the best at about 10-20$ each....as for wheels, I talked to Ray at Custom and Commercial wheel in San Bernadino, and he will make them at about 95 each...You'll definitely save money in the long run....
If everyone in the class switches to 4 lug who is going to buy the 5 lug stuff to recoup the costs? The street scene just buys disc brakes so they won’t want studded, used off road 5 lig stuff at an expensive price. Same with rims, i guess throw those away for $10 a piece on craigslist.

I think a standard set of rules should be written. I know I am the issue with my swingaxle breaking, but IRS stuff is cheaper to replace than swingaxle stuff.

This class is supposed to be the most economical for buggy dorks. I don’t know who petitioned SCORE, it wasn’t me, but it has made me think maybe I would take a 9 car down there now with the new rules.

I’ve only heard ex-racers say bad things about it so far. I really want to see what some of the current racers have to say but they aren’t really chiming in.

I’m personally done spending a ton of money replacing hard to find parts for my car while I learn to wheel it fast. I’ll convert my current car if it doesn’t sell first.
 

ace_photo

GET SOME
Who petitioned SCORE? They never cared about class 9 before? Now it's on their mind or someone wanted it and pushed it. Smells funny...

Wait: Wasn't one of the reasons for the swap to microstubs was because there were no more good T-1 stubs left for 930 flanges? Now there are? Same with DP's and the alum drums and DB's. But the truth was an engine builder, parts suppliers and special interests who petitioned and influenced a lot of the changes. Same went for race gas in C-11, bigger shocks & steering shafts.

Both side of the argument are valid however the real issue is that an IRS car will outperform a swing axle car and will force guys to either do the spend or they will sit based on the spend as showing up half assed to a race with no chance in winning is not in most real racers minds... The other issue is this just opens pandoras box for interpretation. Next year it'll be some party instigating: Type 1 & 2 parts are expensive, scarce & old technology; so we might as well just allow 930's and microstubs...

Why not just allow the trans upgrades in the current cars if in fact, the transmission and not the drivers are the weak links?

Historically every generation of drivers has a handful that seem to be able to figure out how to go fast and make a limited cars last. The rest whine it's the hardware on the car and not the software in the seat that's the issue...
No one petitioned SCORE. The class 9 changes were on the table back when Art Savedra was running tech and was actually going to happen long before CODE's changes. Then Art passed.
Now it's being revisited. Most likely because there hasn't been a 9 entry in a SCORE race in years.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
There were several changes in limited classes that Art was considering. One I had pushed for was losing the stock front and rear firewalls in class 5-1600 so bodies weren't such a pain to change after much roll damage. Art agreed and said he HATED working around the openings of the rear shocks, would cut up what was left of his one arm still there. We laughed a little at that one., He was a very cool and real guy.
 

Mohr

Well-Known Member
PLENTY of play cars and Bajas would suck up the 5 lug stuff....
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
PLENTY of play cars and Bajas would suck up the 5 lug stuff....
Correct... for dirt cheap. Not enough to replace the cost of going 4 lug. I’m sitting on 3 pairs of thing drums. I personally think disc brakes would kill a swingaxle faster than most in the class already are so I agree with the centered drum rule.

Greaseweed you already left the class for IRS. We want to try to retain people from leaving. Everyone that USED to race says leave the class alone, but the few that are still in it that have chimed in are having issues finding parts and keeping swingaxles from bleeding.

I think we should try to setup a class meeting sometime this spring like class 5 does and talk about the rules. That class banded together and now they are making decisions about rules that influence the promoters.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
If you want IRS, go race class 1800.
Because the wheelbase is much different and that makes a HUGE difference. Originally class 18 was suppose to be for 100" cars because it was originally designed back when there were still a lot of old school 100" cars sitting that hadn't been converted to class 9 yet. Then someone allowed a longer car into the class that made that car dominate... And guess what happened?
 
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