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CONSOLIDATE CLASSES...WE MUST!!!

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Recently, I spoke to Roger Norman at SCORE and tried to contact the guys at BITD in the hopes that we can unify, with every other promoter, the use of just one set of Class denomination in our sport. This is for the sake of the general public, so that when they go to Mexico or Nevada, or for that matter any Regional off-road event, they can all see the same classes competing.
Years ago we tried it, Walt Lott was somewhat game for it, Sal Fish was hesitant and didn't think it was a good idea but would listen, and also the smaller organizations were game, but after months of negotiations and talking about it, nothing was done. I believe if we could have united the mish-mosh of classes, it would have been much better to sell our sport to the general public.

I have put something together again, in the hopes of maybe reviving the original concept of unification throughout the sport. Here are the classes that I'm thinking about.

I would love to hear from many of you. Maybe you have better ideas than the classes I've listed. Maybe we can make it even smaller number of classes?
Also it would be great if everyone competing can carry the same class numbers at any event they attend. Just an idea. You are welcome to offer "constructive criticism":

1. Open Super-Truck (Unlimited trucks)
2. Ltd Super-Truck (6100s & ???
3. Open Super-Mini Truck (7 & 7 4x4)
4. Limited Super-Mini Truck (7s)
5. Open Wheel Un-Ltd (Cl 1)
6. Open Wheel Ltd (Cl 10-12)
7. Open Wheel Lite (1-2/1600)
8. Open Wheel Stock (Cl9)
9. Open Heavy Truck 4WD (Cl 4 - Cl 8)
10. Ltd. Heavy Truck Ltd. (Cl 1400)
11. Open Baja (Cl 5)
12. Ltd Baja (5-1600)
13. Baja Stock (Cl 11)
14. Open UTV (Turbo)
15. Ltd UTV (1000 NAs)
16. Bone Stk UTV
17. Open Jeep
18. Ltd Jeep
19. Open SUV/Sedan
20. RWYB (Run What You Brung)

Even 20 classes sound like a lot. My contention is that any desert event over 250 miles, the difference in classes becomes more narrow and the desert and the course become more of an equalizer. This is where not only the power-band and suspension of a racecar becomes less important than the preparation, support, and driving/navigating skills take over.

You can post your comments and ideas here or you can send them directly to me: [email protected]

Thanks.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
I like this except Class 3000 doesn't seem to have a good place. Maybe with class 7? 1400?
And Class 2000 would be with class 7?
 

Viola1685

Well-Known Member
I like this except Class 3000 doesn't seem to have a good place. Maybe with class 7? 1400?
And Class 2000 would be with class 7?
I think that statement could be made for a lot of the many classes out there. However I do agree that there are way too many classes. Why have 5 cars in each class when classes could get back to having 20 or do in each. It’s a nice thought to consolidate but I doubt it will happen.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Why have open heavy truck and limited heavy truck??? 8, 1400 and even Spec TT probably could be combined into a class. 7s and 7 4x4 are pretty much gone and 2000 seems to be the replacement. No need to worry about engine and chassis combos if the factories don't care about them.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
7s is not dead in Mexico. At least not in CODE. Nobody even knows Class 2000 down there but the classes do seem comparable. Class 2000 get's to have V-8's and more suspension travel/shocks though.

To me, 1400 is weird because it can basically be a TT with unlimited motor and suspension and can be built with the potential to dust Spec TT's (Isenhour "F-150" anyone?) so long as it has a steel cab working doors.

1400 is almost MORE unlimited than Class 8, IMO.
 
This is pretty absurd. Talk to any one of those classes individually that you want to consolidate and you will get a resounding no. Sure, the larger class might agree since it would pad the entry numbers and offer them a bigger purse but it screws the smaller classes. Why not just make it a truck class and a buggy class and then lump all utv's into a golf cart class and be done with it.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
I think the issue is the names. Everyone would want TT to be Called TT but Score owns that name. So Score would have to give away that IP. I dont see that happening.

6100, TT Spec, and Baja Truck do not need more trucks. I think they all should be called TT spec but see above. There is a reason why there are 3 names for the same class. Each racing org wants their own branding of the class.

Thats like getting all the burger joints to call their burgers the same name for clarity for the customer. If you get a Big Mac at any fast food its the same design, LOL not happening.

Don't get me wrong as I would love to see it happen. But with each group wanting to compete with the other I don't see them sharing anything. Now more than ever the race orgs are fighting for customers from a limited group. They are in a competition for our dollars. If any of them think they have a branding edge they will keep it too themslelves.

Mike
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
Pragmatically we need to take into account everyone who has invested heavily in their respective classes and try to be fair as possible when combining classes.

Selfishly or maybe wishful thinking I would have fewer classes:
Super Truck Open
Super Truck Ltd

Super Mini Open
Super Mini Ltd

All trucks in those 4 categories based on weight & engine size.

Super Desert Open
Super Desert Ltd
Super Desert Lite

All open wheel on 3 classes: 1, 10 & 12, 1600 & 9. Fine tune to engine size.

Super Baja Open
Super Baja Ltd
Super Baja Classic

Baja Bugs Classes 5, 5-1600 & 11.

I forgot the RUN-WHAT-YOU-BRUNG (RWYB) Class....self explanatory!
 
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Lucho

Well-Known Member
This is pretty absurd. Talk to any one of those classes individually that you want to consolidate and you will get a resounding no. Sure, the larger class might agree since it would pad the entry numbers and offer them a bigger purse but it screws the smaller classes. Why not just make it a truck class and a buggy class and then lump all utv's into a golf cart class and be done with it.
I beg to differ, as I have spoken to quite a few people in the last couple of months and been observing it getting out of hand for several years. Most just wish that there was one class, recognized by all promoters, using the same number sequence, rules and be done with it. Race Numbers may change from organization to organization, but there are some vehicles that can race in one class in one racing organization but has to race in a different class in another. It is very frustrating and costly to many.
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
I think the issue is the names. Everyone would want TT to be Called TT but Score owns that name. So Score would have to give away that IP. I dont see that happening.

6100, TT Spec, and Baja Truck do not need more trucks. I think they all should be called TT spec but see above. There is a reason why there are 3 names for the same class. Each racing org wants their own branding of the class.

Thats like getting all the burger joints to call their burgers the same name for clarity for the customer. If you get a Big Mac at any fast food its the same design, LOL not happening.

Don't get me wrong as I would love to see it happen. But with each group wanting to compete with the other I don't see them sharing anything. Now more than ever the race orgs are fighting for customers from a limited group. They are in a competition for our dollars. If any of them think they have a branding edge they will keep it too themslelves.

Mike
Good points Mike. However, I believe the time is ripe. Put aside the last two months with the Pandemic and the Riots, all that is superficial. The economy is ready to burst again, even bigger than before, and some people, have money in their pockets ready to spend but they have not had the opportunity just yet. I think this is the time to do it...
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Good points Mike. However, I believe the time is ripe. Put aside the last two months with the Pandemic and the Riots, all that is superficial. The economy is ready to burst again, even bigger than before, and some people, have money in their pockets ready to spend but they have not had the opportunity just yet. I think this is the time to do it...
I am confident that you are correct that there is plenty of appetite to consolidate in some classes. There will obviously be resistance in others. My opinion is that you're looking at a mixed bag here, not unanimous consent. And even when you get to unanimous consent (assuming that's even possible), you still face the problem of getting the ultimate deciders to agree. If the promoters aren't willing to change their classes, accept rules from other orgs, etc...then all of this is moot.

I personally see success here being driven by a top down approach instead of a bottom up approach. Until you get BITD, SCORE, and whomever else to agree to even be willing to consider, the mumblings of the mob don't really matter. IF you could even just get two...BITD and SCORE, to agree to the concept, THEN you could start going class by class and have class reps or project leads or whatever start working out what the details would look like for each group.

Again, just my personal opinion.
 

Lucho

Well-Known Member
J. Prich, excellent points and analysis. I think if we could at least get the racers to agree at Class structures, then we can present those options to the organizers It's worth the effort. Thanks.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
I agree with JPrich. You would need to get BITD and SCORE to agree first, then the rest will follow.

This conversation reminds me that I still have 221 on my race truck from the Mint and need to re do all my numbers back to 6122 for SS300. Sure would be nice to have one number LOL

For me TT and TTspec is what they should be called and 200 series numbers for TTspec 100 and below for TT. I think its stilly that we are Trick Trucks and 6100 for BITD. I get that 6100 came from the idea it would be a TL series, but that didn't happen. So no reason it should be 6100.

Mike
 

green787

Well-Known Member
Three classes.... All unlimited.... 4 cyl, 6 cyl, and 8 or more cylinders.... Quit nitpicking about suspension, and travel, and horsepower, etc..... as if John Q. Public even cares....
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
Now, this I can stand for!

Each would have two options:
- Crate (2.4 Ecotec 4cyl, Chevy/Honda 6cyl, 425hp LS3 8 Cyl)
- Open (4 Cyl, 6cyl, 8 Cyl)

6 classes total.

And maybe some UTV classes for under 1000cc stuff.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
'7s is not dead in Mexico. At least not in CODE.'.....Except that that is NOT 7s it is some hybrid that does not follow the actual 7s rules. That's whay I think 2000 works for them. The issue would be engines, and I think that stuffing a V8 into a Ranger shoudl be stopped and they run the motor that comes with the chassis they run. In fact, don't allow full size trucks with V8s in the class, period. They can run the big truck class with the other V8s.
 

Racerinside

Well-Known Member
I thought about this a long time ago and IMO, there should be 4 to 5 classes for each type on vehicle. Still way too many classes but it really needs to be uniformed and easily identified by any onlooker or media.
Use a four digit numbering system. The first digit can be vehicle type. The second digit the class of vehicle. And 3rd and 4th digit is the team number.

Vehicle types:
1. Open wheel
2. Open wheel- beam
3. SUV
4. UTV
5. VW based
6. Jeep based
7. Mini/Mid-size Truck
8. Full Size Truck

Classes:
1. Unlimited
2. Spec
3. Modified
4. Stock
5. Sportsman


Ex. Current 5-1600 -> 5300
Current TT spec, 6100 -> 8200
Current cl.9 -> 2400
Current Trophy Truck -> Trophy Truck because Trophy Truck



Almost every vehicle ever raced will fit this numbering system
 
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