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CONSOLIDATE CLASSES...WE MUST!!!

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Spec TT is probably currently the most successful class with growth besides the UTVs. Yea, lets eliminate it. (Rolls Eyes)
Agreed. IMO any class that consistently gets more than say...10 entries per race, doesn't need to be consolidated with anything.
 

stephenrjking

Well-Known Member
Off-Road should be more than a hobby, it should be more professional. They have been selling offroad for years as a wealthy´s hobby, however, there are racers with low budgets that have made it more professional than others with more money.
I hear what you're saying, and you probably have a bigger stake in this than me, but I disagree. That's a recipe to gut the heart of off road racing, particularly in times of economic downturn. Racing series around the world, up to and including Formula One, struggle with the high costs of motorsport. Every major series on earth has made major rules changes specifically to control the costs; most struggle with ways to make their sport accessible to "privateers," which are hobbyists with money who want to race. There's a whole category for them at Le Mans of all places; not exactly the neighborhood dirt oval.

Racing's space in the mind of fans has declined, not increased. Whole institutions have collapsed. Indycar split and nearly died. This has been happening consistently for years.

Off Road survives in large part because it has cultivated the hobbyist. It never got too big. It's a sport that people drive for love, not money. There are only a few guys who can make a living doing this; most do it at their own expense. Further, off Road is accessible in a way that many other motorsports are not. Everyday guys can race dirt tracks, but they can't race Daytona. A guy can buy a class 9 off of the classifieds here for less than $10,000 (and, uh, invest in a couple of other incidental expenses) and race Baja.

Because of this, Off Road can survive major turns in the economy and public attention. Toyota and Chevy and Mazda can just pull out, a result that would be devastating for other series (MTEG, obviously, but WEC/Le Mans is watching GT get gutted for the same reason) is just a dent in the bodywork. Yeah, a factory Toyota won't be tearing down toward Ensenada, but something else will. Off road keeps going, an impressive level of consistency for a discipline that is a niche sport even as motor racing goes.
When I see the racers in the last miles of the Baja 1000, I see that the UTV classes come mixed, that sometimes the UTV with less mechanical specifications comes in a better position; At that time the mechanical specifications do not make sense, only the talent of the racer comes to mind.
At the end of the race, yeah. But the challenge for the sanctioning bodies isn't getting racers to cross the finish; it's to get racers to line up at the start. Ask LOORRS what happens if you don't have enough of them. And some won't bother if they can't get equal equipment without an outrageous expense.

One thing that seems relevant: It doesn't hurt the aesthetic of the sport to have more competitors. You want more professionalism in the sport, but we already have that in the top teams. That's there for people who want it. Fans don't mind the full fields, though. Any who aren't interested in seeing Dennis Hollenbeck putter through their viewing area are free to ignore it. The nature of desert racing makes it hard to broadcast on tv, but it means that nobody is really hurt by having a lot of people on the course. This is not a tri-oval where there is only so much space; the fast guys are out front and won't ever come across a VW engine note.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
I think the original idea behind this post was not to eliminate or combine healthy classes, but look at dying, struggling classes and see where they could be combined for purse and competition purposes to try to maintain the desire to compete with an old/obsolete race car. For every person racing in all but the most popular classes, there are 3 or 4 guys sitting on the sidelines saying they won't race their car unless 'x' a,punt of cars in class show up! I know several like that! So yeah, no reason to combine TT and Spec, no need to combine 10 or 1600. But having 3000 race with TL and 5 at events where less than 3 of a class show up makes sense. In fact, that used to be a rule in the SCORE rule book. If you wanted to race but did not have 3 in your class show up. SCORE would combine you into the next class 'up' if you were up to it.
 

champtruck77

Well-Known Member
I think the original idea behind this post was not to eliminate or combine healthy classes, but look at dying, struggling classes and see where they could be combined for purse and competition purposes to try to maintain the desire to compete with an old/obsolete race car. For every person racing in all but the most popular classes, there are 3 or 4 guys sitting on the sidelines saying they won't race their car unless 'x' a,punt of cars in class show up! I know several like that! So yeah, no reason to combine TT and Spec, no need to combine 10 or 1600. But having 3000 race with TL and 5 at events where less than 3 of a class show up makes sense. In fact, that used to be a rule in the SCORE rule book. If you wanted to race but did not have 3 in your class show up. SCORE would combine you into the next class 'up' if you were up to it.
Exactly, I agree with your comment.

The classes that have increased entries are (tt spec and utv), but half of these entries used to be in other classes. The average number of entries is still approximately 300 per race.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
old days off road racing was a natural jump from going to Glammis with your crew, easy transition from dune goon to Fud veteten, now, to jump from recreational desert camper to racer is just Much more hassel.no one likes pushing the ' hard' button, Fud racing was an 'Easy' button, now its just too much $& rules& regulations& no fun
 

dan200

#BSF200
you probably have a bigger stake in this than me
I like your input. Not because I agree with it (even though I do). The fact that you're a fan and not actually in the pits I think provides an interesting perspective. Keep the post coming.
 

dan200

#BSF200
I think the original idea behind this post was not to eliminate or combine healthy classes, but look at dying, struggling classes and see where they could be combined for purse and competition purposes to try to maintain the desire to compete with an old/obsolete race car. For every person racing in all but the most popular classes, there are 3 or 4 guys sitting on the sidelines saying they won't race their car unless 'x' a,punt of cars in class show up! I know several like that! So yeah, no reason to combine TT and Spec, no need to combine 10 or 1600. But having 3000 race with TL and 5 at events where less than 3 of a class show up makes sense. In fact, that used to be a rule in the SCORE rule book. If you wanted to race but did not have 3 in your class show up. SCORE would combine you into the next class 'up' if you were up to it.
We had a thread going about this a while back.


Seems as though evolution has never been (and will never be) kind to obsolete equipment/tech. (Thankfully there is NORRA)

A hot shiz TT newly built only 5 years ago can be called "obsolete" when lined up next to a new Mason 4wd. (I expect the TT class will be split into 2wd and 4wd at some point.)

I'm really not a fan of keeping classes on life support with BITD and SCORE. That's why there are other more "grass roots" organizations that cost less to run in entry fee wise.
 

Kiwiflyer

Well-Known Member
Agreed except:
1: B1 and T1 should be combined into a single class. (Unlimited Engine)
2: B2 (6200) and T2 (6100) should be combined into a single class. (Spec LS3)
3: T3 (TL/BL) and Class 10 should be combined into a single class (Spec 2.4L Ecotec)
4: T4 and B4 remain separate buggy and truck classes.
5: UTV gets their own class
Class Tens are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay quicker than TLs
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
Class Tens are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay quicker than TLs
Agreed. I always thought TL's were built way too heavy. They need to be wider too.

If a 900hp TT truck can allegedly outperform a 900hp class 1 buggy.

Then why can't a 200hp TL truck outperform a 200hp class 10 buggy? Answer(IMO): Weight and width/suspension
 

Kiwiflyer

Well-Known Member
Its probably the driver then???
And are you saying the lighter 10 car is faster than a heavier TL? I thought the trucks were faster because they are heavier?? We had that discussion, lol
Might want to tell that top all the TT spec drivers that the class 10s dominated in the 2016 1000 - class tens are very very quick nimble and do not get 100hp taken off them with a t350 transmission and 9 inch diff (actually 82.3 hp)
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Agreed. I always thought TL's were built way too heavy. They need to be wider too.

If a 900hp TT truck can allegedly outperform a 900hp class 1 buggy.

Then why can't a 200hp TL truck outperform a 200hp class 10 buggy? Answer(IMO): Weight and width/suspension
Combining TLs with 10s is a great way to make sure you never have TLs racing at your events any more. No one in their right mind would want to pay pro entry fee money in a TL to race against Class 10s.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
I don't get why TL can't step up their game?

Imagine a fusion class 3000 chassis with a 2.4/2.5 DI ecotec and a 5spd.

The TL mandated chassis and trans is the "slow" factor IMO.
Basically what I am saying is TL's suck relative to class 10 and I wish they didn't.

But I also don't feel strongly enough for me to build one to show it can be done. Maybe I'm crazy.

I'm just glad to see Fusion spice things up with the mini trucks
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
I don't get why TL can't step up their game?

Imagine a fusion class 3000 chassis with a 2.4/2.5 DI ecotec and a 5spd.

The TL mandated chassis and trans is the "slow" factor IMO.
Basically what I am saying is TL's suck relative to class 10 and I wish they didn't.

But I also don't feel strongly enough for me to build one to show it can be done. Maybe I'm crazy.

I'm just glad to see Fusion spice things up with the mini trucks
Why does it matter if it's "slow". Relative to what? It's a spec class. The only speed that matters is relative to other vehicles built to the same specs. What a TL does compared to literally any other class is completely irrelevant. That's the entire point of a spec class. It doesn't matter if it's a spec TT or a spec go kart, the idea is to create as level a playing field as possible vehicle wise in order to maximize the impact of driver, prep, etc. How any spec class vehicle compares to any other class is completely irrelevant, and changing the rules of a class that's already existed for 10 years or whatever, just to combine it with another class, makes no sense in my opinion.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter really. TL's are slow compared to 10 and that's just the way it is. (Because spec class and all)
Hence my excitement for new Class 3000's. Limited mostly by motor requirements much like class 10, 6100, 6200

It's what TL should have been IMO but time will tell how the 2.3 turbo holds up.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Which Fusion chassis, the straight axle or the buggy chassis? He has built both. And the new 3000 from Fusion does not fit the old class 3000 rules, it has a longer wheelbase, bigger tires, etc... It is a class 3000 in name only as that is what BITD wanted the numbering for the new class to be. Some of the old class 3000 folks saw what was going on and decided to open some dialogue to see if there was a way that they would be able to compete in the new class 3000 with some tweaks and not simply be purse money donaters. While the engine rules for old class 3000 appear to be changing, I don't think the idea of them running with the new 3000s is going to happen.
 

Slippery P

Well-Known Member
Yikes Prich you got a like from BG. Did you 2 kiss and make up or what? Someone hijack his account?
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
I'm referring to the wider 2.3 turbo solid-axle linked trucks.
They look like smaller TT's. Whatever class that is.
If the 2.3 turbo is decent, it doesn't seem like a bad swap for class 5's, TL's, and class 10's since there is complaining about the 2.4/2.5 Ecotec's getting old.
Maybe I'm thinking too far ahead or crazy. Probably.
 
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