Cross Link Suspension - It's New - Comments and discussion invited

[Wicked Al]

This is what I have been working on and am now building a proof of concept vehicle. Patent is now pending so I can talk about it. Your questions, comments and discussion are welcome. I came up with the concept, I do not have in depth knowledge of shock tuning or shock design for a specific application. I can give an educated guess and get 80% of where it can be. I'd love to make it to 90% as I will be at the Sand Sports Super Show with it and if luck favors me, I'll be able to have people do demo rides directly after the show to see what it can do.

My prototype will be built on a RZR Turbo S. It is a known quantity and should be a good base to compare against.

I am not a suspension novice however. I have raced ATV's and SXSs for many years with several championships. I have also designed and built a clean design desert race ATV with leading suspension, 18" up front and 20" in the rear with a suspension predecessor to my current design. The problem with that previous design was I still had an issue with obtaining full articulation with anti roll capabilities, this new design solves that.

I apologize if I have stated anything before on these pages, I have memory issues as a result of being hit by a TT at V2R a couple of years ago, I'm just now getting beck to where I can take a project and push it forward... still have some persistent side effects, so bear with me, your patience is appreciated.

My biggest challenge right now is deciding on spring rates and shock length. For sake of argument, let's pretend the shock will be mounted in the existing location on the arms at the existing angle.

The thing about this system is because all shocks are connected, a change in one affects the whole system differently. Single spring? Dual spring? On outside shocks? Inside shocks? Shock length? Different length front from rear? How soon/aggressive to activate the center shock for antiroll? Instead of the center shock being front + rear, should it be 2X rear?

Caution, for the technically inclined, this can be mesmerizing.

Read the attached PDF and ask away!

Thanks!

 

[BTFfabrication]

I’m not even sure what the heck I just looked at, but packaging all that looks like a nightmare. A 3” coilover and big bypass on a regular setup is hard enough to fit everything.

 

[bullnerd]

Very cool Al!

Good luck, Can't wait to see some vids of the test.

 

[Wicked Al]

I’m not even sure what the heck I just looked at, but packaging all that looks like a nightmare. A 3” coilover and big bypass on a regular setup is hard enough to fit everything.

Happy to answer any questions. A "traditional" suspension system would not be a nightmare though there would be a couple of packaging considerations for the links. When you add in a bypass, CO and a bump stop, it might be a tad more challenging to package it all. A 4WD vehicle would see more benefit as the system automatically balances the load across the vehicle. The compression and rebound rates are not position dependent and with multiple valving rates tied to specific spring rates, the tire will spend more time on the ground. For example, the lighter spring on the wheel is paired with a fast rebound rate, the center heavy spring is tied to a slow rebound rate. As these shocks are in series it doesn't matter how deep into the stroke it is, as you go over terrain, the wheel will react quickly to the small changes and slowly to the big changes. Because it is diagonal, any movement by the center shock automatically brings the opposing corner down providing anti roll, anti dive, anti lift and load balancing.

 

[Wicked Al]

Very cool Al!

Good luck, Can't wait to see some vids of the test.

Thanks Mike! I can't wait to see those vids either!

Here is a vid I did of the suspension that led me to the Cross Link. Look at the last take going around the corner. Look how little roll it has, no sway bar. For such a high CG and only 54" wide with 18"+ of wheel travel, it's doing pretty good.

 

[bullnerd]

I think remember seeing this video back when you released it.

That looks like fun!

 

[partybarge_pilot]

There was an Australian company called Kinetic that did the same thing but hydraulically. It was used for 1 year in WRC before it was banned. The company was bought by Tenneco and the tech pretty much disappeared.

New Monroe Kinetic Suspension Technology From Tenneco Automotive | Tenneco Inc.

 

[jon coleman]

i get it, used to work on aircraft, like feed back arm on actuator, all you gotta do is tie all that to a commputor ,accelerometer s, position sensors, and make all the shocks magnetically dampend controled fluid& on paper , vehicle should ride level across most terrain at speed.when its all dialed and u are the 'go to' guy , can i go for a ride??

 

[Wicked Al]

I think remember seeing this video back when you released it.

That looks like fun!

Yeah, it's been awhile. I built that, then designed the new improved version, but at the same time I started racing and developing products for the Kymco machines...then got ran over and have been recovering since. Now it's time to focus on this suspension and get it out to market. I actually had it as part of an extreme terrain vehicle I designed and was going to build, but it was strongly suggested I start with the suspension and let that fund the other projects. That kinda makes sense as I generally have too many ideas and not enough funds. LOL

 

[Wicked Al]

There was an Australian company called Kinetic that did the same thing but hydraulically. It was used for 1 year in WRC before it was banned. The company was bought by Tenneco and the tech pretty much disappeared.

New Monroe Kinetic Suspension Technology From Tenneco Automotive | Tenneco Inc.

Kinetic, and now Tenneco certainly had some interesting things going on there, but this is very different.

 

[Wicked Al]

i get it, used to work on aircraft, like feed back arm on actuator, all you gotta do is tie all that to a commputor ,accelerometer s, position sensors, and make all the shocks magnetically dampend controled fluid& on paper , vehicle should ride level across most terrain at speed.when its all dialed and u are the 'go to' guy , can i go for a ride??

I'm not familiar with aircraft feedback arms on actuators. But this I know, this system is purely mechanical, no sensors, computers etc. The benefit is in how the shocks are connected and how it distributes the load. With this you can accomplish a lot with basic shocks as you no longer have to have one shock doing everything. On the other hand, if you wanted to add advanced and active shocks, this system would only get better.

 

[jon coleman]

you could also have cockpit adjustable pivot- fulcrum points to adjust on the fly, flight controls are hydraulic, mech. actuated , the ones i worked on, it basically is position fixed as u move the ' stick' , a push - pull rod stops hyd. servo at the point u stop moving stick, just transferring motion thru pivot points , bell cranks, levers, . ect.i forgot most of it, evan though i used to be 100% a/f qual.on an e2 c hawkeye.i think u got somthing.if its a ' bolt on ' sXs thing, u got a Big market

 

[gwizz]

i dont understand the significance of what im looking at with the quad. is it like a arms on a swing arm? or is there more going on with how the arms crossover one another. a couple non pdf pictures for dummies would be cool.


the only significant game changers i see in off road racing are shock placement to load the chassis under bumps and full compression(like big mac), that and different motion paths of the wheel as it cams over a bump as you hit it. kind of like the front end of Vildosolas truck and the back end of dirty harry. everything else is pretty played out as far as the traditional 3/4 llink trailing arm set ups. there is that jimco thing too but i feel like that is just chasing the trucks.

 

[gwizz]

also whats up with the world industries thing. not hatin, kinda cool/nostalgic if your trying to rep it honestly.

 

[jon coleman]

im looking at it as a progressive shock rate with a linear valved set of shocks that are tied together frnt to rear, side to side, kinda like the old suzuki ' full floater ' shock , rocker arm, dogbone link setup, only trouble is All the Moving parts

 

[jcorsico]

How is this different from a hydraulically cross linked system?

 

[Bert is my name]

How is this different from a hydraulically cross linked system?

Not sure it would be. Other than being able to adjust the flow from side to side or front to back. The drawings seem vague to me. I'm having a hard time picturing how it packages. In the video it seems to work well at lower speeds and in the corners. A walk around video of the quad would be useful in seeing how it packages. I would be afraid of showing too much if patents are not in place.

 

[Bricoop]

Thanks Mike! I can't wait to see those vids either!

Here is a vid I did of the suspension that led me to the Cross Link. Look at the last take going around the corner. Look how little roll it has, no sway bar. For such a high CG and only 54" wide with 18"+ of wheel travel, it's doing pretty good.

Do you have images of the suspension on this atv?

 

[partybarge_pilot]

Not sure it would be. Other than being able to adjust the flow from side to side or front to back.

The Kinetic system also had a center accumulator tank with some tricky valving on it. There were enough adjustments on t to drive you crazy.

 

[Wicked Al]

i dont understand the significance of what im looking at with the quad. is it like a arms on a swing arm? or is there more going on with how the arms crossover one another. a couple non pdf pictures for dummies would be cool.


the only significant game changers i see in off road racing are shock placement to load the chassis under bumps and full compression(like big mac), that and different motion paths of the wheel as it cams over a bump as you hit it. kind of like the front end of Vildosolas truck and the back end of dirty harry. everything else is pretty played out as far as the traditional 3/4 llink trailing arm set ups. there is that jimco thing too but i feel like that is just chasing the trucks.

The quad was the predecessor. If you look at the front of the quad, the two outside shocks are connected to a pivoting member which has it's own shock. The benefit of this is the center shock was twice as strong as the outside shocks so if I hit an obstacle on one tire, it started with just the outside shock sprung and valved for 25% of the mass, but then it progressed to the center shock sprung and valved for 50% of the mass. This allows for very supple small movement along with the ability to take big hits. Because it was connected across the front, it also acted like a highly tunable sway bar. The problem with that is it limited articulation to only half of the wheel travel. The Cross Link system takes that same set up but instead of going across the front it goes diagonal, Front Right to Left Rear and another set up doing the other diagonal. That would be the 6 shock set up. You can connect the two center shocks with another shock for the 7 shock set up which essentially acts as a whole body sway bar, but it does limit your articulation a tad. There are a ton of other benefits once you visualize this set up going through the various situations it encounters.