Dakar 2019 SxS versus Cars, how much difference?

ZequeArgentina

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A lot of writing and opinions on this regards specially because of RG decision to enter the Dakar in the Textron.

I have look at times of Side by sides ( those entered in SxS class, not Textrons as they had many problems and were not faster than those using full limitations on SxS cathegory).

1- Firstly, the winner in SxS would have finished 8th in overall in cars some 7hours 40 minutes down on Nasser

2- if we consider he fastest In each class every day (fastest car and fastest SxS) the difference is reduced to 6hours 13 minutes. Nasser was much consistent than Chaleco Lopez. That would be 7.6 seconds per kilometer slower in the 2951 km of times special
Stages.

3- To my surprise, SxS were generally closer to cars the faster the stages were, even its the speed limited to 130 km/h in the SxS, with some exceptions.
Ss6 average speed of cars was 91,9 km/h, for SxS 80 km/h, meaning 5,9 seconds by km

4- Stage 5, the most difficult one and with most abandon rate of all, was the one with biggest difference with the cars needing 4h 56m and 69.8 average speed, SxS needed 1 h 37 minutes more, and averaging 52,6km/h. They were 16,9 secs/km slower.

I will add charts later with every stage.

If RG found that running in cars he could get a more powerful turbo engine and much wider track, longer suspension travel, purpose built cage, he would I ideally be much faster than SxS, difficult to say by how much; but rot is true such an ideal
Vehicle might be fighting for a top 10 position speed wise.

From spectator point of view , side by side do not look as fast as they really are, and clearly look to be ideal for racing for part of the budget as cars.

I will add more later after posting the chart.
 
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Total Loss

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RG stretched (and went over in many cases) the limit of design of the XX for his plan to run with the cars.
He is now to the point of a 4x4 small buggy. (don't get me wrong...I like what he tried and accomplished)

Precisely why Can Am faired much better though IMO. Stock based platform with just enough power to keep them together...somewhat. Still limited by the rubber band drive and clutches.
I challenge everyone to drive one of these new sport SxS's before you pass judgement on them. They are fast...and fairly reliable if you know how to drive them...there is a knack in keeping them together.

The old days when we tried to get the Rhinos to the finish line in a Score race are looooooooooooooong gone.
 

michael_loomis

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RG stretched (and went over in many cases) the limit of design of the XX for his plan to run with the cars.
He is now to the point of a 4x4 small buggy. (don't get me wrong...I like what he tried and accomplished)

Precisely why Can Am faired much better though IMO. Stock based platform with just enough power to keep them together...somewhat. Still limited by the rubber band drive and clutches.
I challenge everyone to drive one of these new sport SxS's before you pass judgement on them. They are fast...and fairly reliable if you know how to drive them...there is a knack in keeping them together.

The old days when we tried to get the Rhinos to the finish line in a Score race are looooooooooooooong gone.
All the big dogs that desert race in the states/Baja are the same now.. 4WD buggies. Nothing much stock about them except the engine and CVT and I’m not sure how much stock parts remain in those.

There is ZERO point of comparing the Dakar SXS to the cars IMO.

Their current results are more of the tortoise vs the hare. Nasser didn’t even push the last half of the rally.


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ltr450rider

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These Side-by-Sides are pretty surprising in what they have accomplished in the past 10 years since they have been revamped from farm equipment to a true offroad capable sports vehicle.

The early years saw the drive belts as the weak link, and many had ideas about how to loose the rubber band and have more of a direct drive device like a chain or drive gears. The fact is, the belt is the key to how these things work and actually help keep gearbox's and drivetrain together. There have been many advances in belt and clutch technology with all of the people that have figured them out. I was one to say the belt was the weak link, but now I embrace it's usefulness when properly set up. I still think there are many things that can be addressed to make them even better.

The belt acts like a damper between the drivetrain and engine, absorbing the shock loads that are sent through the tires, axles, and drivetrain. This shock absorption is what helps keep the gearbox's together, albeit for a limited amount of time. Same idea with using a torque converter and a manual gearbox in a trophy truck or class 1 car.

The weak link in these production based SxS's is now the drivetrain. The gearbox and front diff's were never designed to handle these types of loads in racing environments. They were made for Joe Schmo to get in, put the shift lever in high gear and drive around the dirt roads and sand dunes with their families.

I have seen every brand of SxS gearbox and front diff now, and I can tell you that not one of them is suited to handle any type of racing environment from the factory build specs without proper adjustments that a true transmission expert can address and properly adjust. The prep that I have been doing to these Polaris and Can-Am gearboxes and diff's has really worked well. They still have a life expectancy on the gears, but proper prep and maintenance will always prevent a failure.
 

Bricoop

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These Side-by-Sides are pretty surprising in what they have accomplished in the past 10 years since they have been revamped from farm equipment to a true offroad capable sports vehicle.

The early years saw the drive belts as the weak link, and many had ideas about how to loose the rubber band and have more of a direct drive device like a chain or drive gears. The fact is, the belt is the key to how these things work and actually help keep gearbox's and drivetrain together. There have been many advances in belt and clutch technology with all of the people that have figured them out. I was one to say the belt was the weak link, but now I embrace it's usefulness when properly set up. I still think there are many things that can be addressed to make them even better.

The belt acts like a damper between the drivetrain and engine, absorbing the shock loads that are sent through the tires, axles, and drivetrain. This shock absorption is what helps keep the gearbox's together, albeit for a limited amount of time. Same idea with using a torque converter and a manual gearbox in a trophy truck or class 1 car.

The weak link in these production based SxS's is now the drivetrain. The gearbox and front diff's were never designed to handle these types of loads in racing environments. They were made for Joe Schmo to get in, put the shift lever in high gear and drive around the dirt roads and sand dunes with their families.

I have seen every brand of SxS gearbox and front diff now, and I can tell you that not one of them is suited to handle any type of racing environment from the factory build specs without proper adjustments that a true transmission expert can address and properly adjust. The prep that I have been doing to these Polaris and Can-Am gearboxes and diff's has really worked well. They still have a life expectancy on the gears, but proper prep and maintenance will always prevent a failure.
This is making me wonder what the evolution of the TT will be. Seems that the teams on the cutting edge are working on the same issue, the drivetrain. Is the answer a lighter smaller TT pushing less power?

I'm excited for the first team that attempts to run electric motors.
 

Total Loss

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All the big dogs that desert race in the states/Baja are the same now..

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Except the "little dog" won the NA class handily in last years V2R...ha...ha. In a mostly stock unit.
 

Total Loss

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harleys dad

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I took my turbo Polaris to glamis a couple weeks ago, gave me some big respect getting the UTVs to the finish in Dakar as its not hard to heat the belt in the dunes and the dunes in Peru were huge.
 

Bricoop

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All the big dogs that desert race in the states/Baja are the same now.. 4WD buggies. Nothing much stock about them except the engine and CVT and I’m not sure how much stock parts remain in those.

There is ZERO point of comparing the Dakar SXS to the cars IMO.

Their current results are more of the tortoise vs the hare. Nasser didn’t even push the last half of the rally.


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This "Nasser was not pushing" narrative has been floating around and its straight up false. After the rest day he won a stage and came in second twice. Nobody had a faster cumulative time over the final 5 stages than Nasser. Except for Nani, everyone lost at least 1 hour to Nasser, Nani only lost 32 minutes.
 

Bricoop

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RG stretched (and went over in many cases) the limit of design of the XX for his plan to run with the cars.
He is now to the point of a 4x4 small buggy. (don't get me wrong...I like what he tried and accomplished)

Precisely why Can Am faired much better though IMO. Stock based platform with just enough power to keep them together...somewhat. Still limited by the rubber band drive and clutches.
I challenge everyone to drive one of these new sport SxS's before you pass judgement on them. They are fast...and fairly reliable if you know how to drive them...there is a knack in keeping them together.

The old days when we tried to get the Rhinos to the finish line in a Score race are looooooooooooooong gone.
Makes me wonder what a stock XX chassis/motor with UTV tires, clutch kit, and suspension upgrades would have done out there.
 

michael_loomis

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This "Nasser was not pushing" narrative has been floating around and its straight up false. After the rest day he won a stage and came in second twice. Nobody had a faster cumulative time over the final 5 stages than Nasser. Except for Nani, everyone lost at least 1 hour to Nasser, Nani only lost 32 minutes.
You can say what you want, but he wasn’t pushing. Watch the videos from the first few days and compare them to the last few. Loeb gained almost 10 mins a day until he screwed up and lost 40 mins a second time. With an hour lead over second at the Dakar, there is ZERO reason to push. Keep in mind, Nassers cruise is still damn fast. Fast enough to win imo.

But to charge hard every stage in the second half would be flat out dumb, which he is not.


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Bricoop

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You can say what you want, but he wasn’t pushing. Watch the videos from the first few days and compare them to the last few. Loeb gained almost 10 mins a day until he screwed up and lost 40 mins a second time. With an hour lead over second at the Dakar, there is ZERO reason to push. Keep in mind, Nassers cruise is still damn fast. Fast enough to win imo.

But to charge hard every stage in the second half would be flat out dumb, which he is not.


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TIL: Sebastian Loeb's Race pace is only 10 minutes faster than Nasser Cruising. LOL
 

michael_loomis

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TIL: Sebastian Loeb's Race pace is only 10 minutes faster than Nasser Cruising. LOL
Considering he was losing time daily in the dunes, yes.


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Zambo

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Anyone else find it odd that none of the so-called "unlimited" UTV entries ever comes close to putting down a time that would get them on the podium of the stock/production classes in SCORE or BITD?
 

Zambo

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I think so but that’s what you would expect given that they are historically slower.


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Zambo

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I think there are plenty of crappy class 10 cars masquerading as UTVs out there right now.
 

michael_loomis

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Because no one is silly enough to build a class 10 UTV lovechild...til now.
That’s what they’ve been for the last 3 years now

IMG_4911.jpg



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