Did a broke kid from Pahrump just solve the 4 Wheel Drive Trophy Truck Reliability problem?

retroblazer

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The battery game is changing, in two years we’ll all be using super-capacitor based batteries. You’ll be able to recharge the batteries in less time than it will take to refuel with gas.


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JDDurfey

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Has anyone played around with hydraulic front wheel assist. I know that the added "unsprung" weight may not be ideal for most vehicles, but the ability to have a "hydrostatic" front wheel drive while using a traditional rear diff could be quite helpful I would think in rock crawling. The downside would be the added weight at each front wheel with the hydraulic motors. Then there needs to be a hydraulic pump, cooler, and reservoir tank as well.

So it might not be ideal for most, but the ability to adjust how much power is going to the front wheels would almost be infinite.

There are vocational trucks made by Freightliner and Western Star that have a system like this. When it is turned on it engages the front wheels at anything under 20 mph and automatically disengages when the speed increases. It is a great system for service trucks that need to get into rough or muddy areas and need some extra traction.
 

isdtbower

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You have to be pretty sensitive to torque steer in IFS. I am not sure hydraulics would be up to that. I am sure differential types are changed depending on the "course" and needs. Sometimes you have time to think about and activate a switch. Sometimes you don't. A locked IFS is no fun when there is lots of traction. Programming will allow dual motors to present the best of all options but I bet the "unlockers" will still be there to minimize the instant stopping of a motor in jumps and rocks. I am from the analog age and having to re-program the brain in this digital age.

The mechanics of active shocks was easy to figure out ( not magnetic) but finding someone truly interested in understanding the dynamics and then programming for that has been the stickler. Johnson Controls seems to have the lead on this but applying elsewhere. An accelerometer was the key. Today someone is playing with accelerometers, etc in each shock and they talk to one another by wi-fi. No wires. Simple installation. Re-valving will be just a laptop or cell phone away.

Heck the new 4 cylinder Jeep has a new "alternator replacement" that runs off of 48 volts. It will be the starter, regenerator, "alternator", and power booster from a stop light. It adds something like 35hp to kick in before the turbos spool up. Volvo also. I believe.

Just like the Bridgeport, CAD and Laptops are just new tools. You still have to have the thinkers and lookers to understand the geometry of suspensions and the dynamics of control. Two very different abilities and the new tools are making it easier..

We are all for KISS but I think the ship has sailed on digital. I'll have to mostly watch.and save up.
 

scottm

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The American dream is to patent something and sell the rights to it.

Honda told us that with all their money and engineers, that they could find a way around our patents and that they didn't need to pay for a license from us.

Patents are purely a license to litigate.

I know something about this. I worked at the company that invented the Superknife, the original folding pocket knife that uses utility knife blades. We showed it to the home improvement stores, and they all said they weren't interested. But about a year later the knockoffs showed up. Go into any store and you see them, 3 for $10. We tried to fight but they just laughed at our feeble efforts.
 

isdtbower

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Can't you make anything that already has a patent? You just can't sell it? And therein lies the conundrum of Racing.Transfercases.and why some special builds might never be "sold."
 
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Has anyone played around with hydraulic front wheel assist.

IIRC, the "Black Widow" mudbogger did, and dominated the 4WD ranks until it was banned. Think a Scott somebody built it, a mudbuggy with hydrostatic front drive.

Like, late 80's, maybe?
 

isdtbower

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087.JPG
I can't pass this up. Seems prevalent.
 

Bricoop

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The battery game is changing, in two years we’ll all be using super-capacitor based batteries. You’ll be able to recharge the batteries in less time than it will take to refuel with gas.


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Speaking of Batteries, who will be the first to build a hybrid TT? For another thread.
 

johndjmix

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Cheers to the electric comment. As most of you have seen at contingency, we build the small electric coolers. In the size and weight no gas engine can touch the power. Electric is the future.


That said, for the trucks, I don’t know why there hasent been an attempt at a hydraulic front drive system. This was played with on dirt bikes back east when I raced GNCC. seemed to work well and be super low weight. Why not on the trucks? HYD would take a lot of the shocks out of the system and solve the CV issue.

—John


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vegasloki

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Can't you make anything that already has a patent? You just can't sell it? And therein lies the conundrum of Racing.Transfercases.and why some special builds might never be "sold."
Patents don't have a fair use provision like copyright. The letter of the law is that you are not allowed to make the item even for personal use.
 

isdtbower

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I think the hybrid electric drive-train technology will have to be brought to Ultra4 , Desert, Pro4, etc.. There is too much tech there for a "general team." Most engine programs are brought in now as an example. It will be up to the teams to learn and apply good IFS geometry with very different drive characteristics. No longer will the front be pushed. It will be pulling. A lot can be learned from Front WD rally cars. Body roll affects geometry especially in turns. Caster and camber control will be different. All of this is controlled at the frame. And the current builds will change because it is entirely possible to have CV's at the centerline (Already U4, Pro4??). The arm layout for centered does not make that area real strong. IFS can appear relatively simple if you leave a lot of wheel control on the table and disregard roll. There is also anti dive which locks suspensions. And front lift on accel as the wheels may what to pull the arms together. There is incredible stress on steering systems. Racks/etc. are usually keyed into the frame. If you take a no-compromise approach, it is like controlling a 6-7 axis machine. Experience or computing power $$ help. Desert geometry will be different from U4 and Pro4. The terrain and speeds are different which will change the criteria. Designing to good IFS criteria seems within the ability of desert teams...and enough of a handful for now. Tricky is knowing what criteria to consider and why. And then applying to the intended use.

All of this is pretty well understood by designers in the auto industry. Where you throw them the curve is 5-10* body roll with 18-20" suspension vs 2* and 4"...Plus hitting a 9" something at 90mph and rolling on thru....They would get it after looking at pictures and videos of 4wd IFS for a couple months.

I can't find a picture that Roger Norman posted with two motors but it was similar to the rear of a Tesla except that there were two take-offs in the center so the drives could be separated mechanically and electrically..
Tesla-Dual-Motors.jpg
 

Bricoop

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I think the hybrid electric drive-train technology will have to be brought to Ultra4 , Desert, Pro4, etc.. There is too much tech there for a "general team." Most engine programs are brought in now as an example. It will be up to the teams to learn and apply good IFS geometry with very different drive characteristics. No longer will the front be pushed. It will be pulling. A lot can be learned from Front WD rally cars. Body roll affects geometry especially in turns. Caster and camber control will be different. All of this is controlled at the frame. And the current builds will change because it is entirely possible to have CV's at the centerline (Already U4, Pro4??). The arm layout for centered does not make that area real strong. IFS can appear relatively simple if you leave a lot of wheel control on the table and disregard roll. There is also anti dive which locks suspensions. And front lift on accel as the wheels may what to pull the arms together. There is incredible stress on steering systems. Racks/etc. are usually keyed into the frame. If you take a no-compromise approach, it is like controlling a 6-7 axis machine. Experience or computing power $$ help. Desert geometry will be different from U4 and Pro4. The terrain and speeds are different which will change the criteria. Designing to good IFS criteria seems within the ability of desert teams...and enough of a handful for now. Tricky is knowing what criteria to consider and why. And then applying to the intended use.

All of this is pretty well understood by designers in the auto industry. Where you throw them the curve is 5-10* body roll with 18-20" suspension vs 2* and 4"...Plus hitting a 9" something at 90mph and rolling on thru....They would get it after looking at pictures and videos of 4wd IFS for a couple months.

I can't find a picture that Roger Norman posted with two motors but it was similar to the rear of a Tesla except that there were two take-offs in the center so the drives could be separated mechanically and electrically..
View attachment 191614
If you were designing a TT, would you harvest power off the engine or utilize a generator? I've thought an independent front and rear electric drive running off of a diesel generator could be an effective solution.
 

BHollander

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Oh great now you guys just obsoleted the fix for 4wd trophy trucks. RDC sure makes it hard to be innovative cause soon as you fix 1 thing then someone has to totally make the fix outdated before it is tested. So new Trophy Truck class TTE and TTE4 maybe even TTH and TTH4? Maybe we can get some Tesla superchargers down the peninsula? Maybe the base of the Summit since a lot of people hang there race day waiting to go up. Where else would you guys propose?

I'm kidding for those that cannot sense sarcasm. But seriously we are a long way out from hydraulic and electric TT's. I believe Fortin has the BEST 4wd option that is somewhat affordable and you can get parts and service for in a timely manner (between races). The others are good set ups potentially but when you have to wait a 6 months to get parts or rebuilds they will fade off. Also you cannot claim to solving a problem while you are assembling a prototype otherwise the world would never have problems to fix. Just because CAD worked and it was assembled does not mean it will hold up. At the end of the day it will come down to who will make the biggest investment to have parts and t-cases on the shelf. That will be the go to for 4wd needs. Just my .02 and I am just here for some entertainment I will never have the budget for a competitive TT whether its 2wd, 4wd, gas, diesel, elec, hydraulic, or wind powered. Wait wind powered? Did I just feed the squirrels? lol back to the derailed thread.
 

isdtbower

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Some good points. Maybe there should be an exhibition class where you can bring anything "safe" but has parts and tech that are not available to everyone. There would not be the threat of being banned but you could be recognized. That might allow the tech to move on and maybe accepted faster. Not what many want obviously. And they still race horses.

And to the point of this thread there is still plenty of room to innovate within mechanical 4wd.
 
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