easy toyota lift spindles (keep A arms parallel)

[geoff]

The setup im building will use a vertical heim joint at the top of the spindle, and a horizontal uniball at the bottom, so that steering will be the limiting factor, not the wheel travel (except the lower of course). A picture of this type of setup can be seen here:

or more specifically

also, on the lower part of the spindle, i plan on running a horizontally mounted uniball/spherical bearing. This mounting is a tight confine so it looks like a 1" would be the best bet. It will be similar to the following pics where you can see the horizontal uniball all the way at the bottom of the spindle (hard to see i know, sorry about that).

But here is the interesting thing. If you look realllllly closely at the total chaos spindle it is a normal toy spindle, but all they did was move the location of the ball joint to above the mounting point on the spindle, and correspondingly extended the mounting point for the upper arm up 3.5 inches. If you have ever taken apart a stock toy spindle, its pretty surprising but that entire stock ball joint could fit in the spindle from the top if there was no ream, and the hole was straight. All i need to do is drill and tap the lower out then make new lowers that will allow me to mount the ball in them, and while it should provide a decent amount of travel, the number wont be huge, the key part is that using a setup like this creates a lift spindle which allows one to keep the arms horizontal (parallel) to the ground so that all the energy is in the y direction, nothing wasted in the x direction.

and

as well as

I am probably using a 7/8" upper heim with a 1/2" hole and a 1" lower uniball.

here is a pic of the arms even with the ground

wondering why no one else has made lift spindles like this?


"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[cleartoy]

You bring up alot of good points. It is actually just that easy to make lift spindles. After i put the TC kit on mine, i was like, damn, those spindles could be duplicated.

Show us your project when you are done.

85 Toyota xtracab 4x4(for sale)
94 Toyota stdcab 2x4
99 Yamaha YZ250

Got Sand??

 

[Donahoe]

Very true... But you wouldnt BE A MONKEY NUT AND COPY someone elses development would you? No you bought one and for that you are smart.. Give credit where credit is Due. Total chaos worked hard to develop that kit. Dont go copying it. Buy the damm thing... ITS DONE AND RIGHT.... Plus if it breaks you have someone to bitch at. Dream up new stuff... Like the teliscoping ball joint...

NEVER LIFT!!!!!

 

[ntsqd]

If you keep the A arms parallel you really change where the roll center is, and you lose whatever Camber curve might have been there stock. Not sure that these are bad things, just pointing them out.
I keep hearing that the camber curve doens't matter in the dirt. That may be true, but I can't help but think that if you have a well developed vehicle, the camber curve has been at least looked at. Maybe not as finely tuned as a CART car, but something at least.
Moving the roll center up is probably the most desirable part of the whole excursion. The only reason road racer's have such low roll centers is because the camber curve puts it there and a proper curve is more important than the RC height. Since the curve isn't as important here, getting the RC up will mean less roll in corners and, if you can get the RC above the CG, a tendency for the vehicle to gather itself back over the suspension rather than flopping over when landing out of shape.

TS

"It only seems kinky the first time"
-- Bumpersticker seen in Lost Wages

 

[geoff]

thanks, but beleive it or not, just because i came up with the same idea as TC doesnt mean i went and copied it. I had been planning on doing a setup like this for a little while and it never occured to me that all TC does when they make the spindles is the same thing i was doing. I actually thought they fabricated it completely, i didnt realize they used a stock setup, until looking really really closely at their pics.

Not everyone can afford a 4k$ setup anyway, and its no secret that while their stuff is great, it is overpriced.

If this kit breaks then ill learn why it broke and ill make it better so it doesnt break. I have a race car that soaks up most of my funds so this project is as low budget as i can keep it. If that means making a setup that someone already thought of and being a "monkey nut", sorry. I understand that its insightful to have someone go and duplicate hard work, but im not selling it, my setup is no more/less innovative than theirs and as far as i can tell, pretty much every high end lift kit shares a number of similarities, and its all the same in the long run.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[geoff]

thanks tom, thats a good point, but im not sure how the camber curve would really change if the distance that the lower is moved up, the upper is moved up an identical distance? That way the arms are still in the same relation to one another, and the wheel still mounts on the same plane as previous. The only difference is that the arms mount higher up, their movements are the same and the wheel still sees the same arc (s).

another thing that is nice about having that heim on the top of the spindle will be that i can raise and lower the upper just by spinning the heim, this will change the camber curve so i can play around until i find something i am happy with.

Now that i have gone to and fro on the ball joint vs spherical issue about 30 times, im back to looking at the ball joints. The SCP one i previously mentioned should be able to do about 45 degrees and based on all the stuff over at pirate4x4 all those guys swear by ball joints, their cheaper, more reliable, and easier (far easier!) to get. I just need to figure out how to mount one and i may end up doing that...

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[Kritter]

Nothing is wrong with ball joints, find some heavy duty ones and make them fit on the lowers. For the uppers use a heim or uniball. As for adjsuting the arm height with the heim to change the camber curve...watch your bumpsteer when doing that.

Kris

 

[geoff]

yeah good point on the bumpsteer, i will jsut have to cycle it a whole lot until it works.

i need to find a ball joint that will clear the upright portion of the spindle, but still be strong enough. Any recommendations for ball joints besides Stock Car Products. Those ones listed on their site are actaully just AFCO ball joints, but im going to drive around phx and see what i can find at local shops. thanks.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[ntsqd]

Make scale pattern & trace the stock set-up's travel path on some grid paper. I've used heavy construction paper for the links and thumb tacks for the anchors & pivots. Then do the same for your proposed design. Iterate until you like what you see. Then check to see if that will actually fit on the frame. Then iterate again.......
Alternatively, Allan Staniforth offers his "String Computer" concept in his book on race car design. I don't remember it well enough to describe it, best to buy the book.

The way I was reading your proposal was that you intended to make both arms parallel to each other, but regardless of what you end up doing if the suspension pivot distances don't grow in exact proportion to stock you will alter the camber curve. And perhaps other things.

Bumpsteer is a gooey subject. Most of what I've read says that if the inner tie rod pivot is, say, 60% up of the distance btwn the inner pivots, and lies on the line btwn those points, then the out needs to be 60% up and on the line btwn the outer points. From what I've seen this mostly works, if you can actually get the parts to fit there. If not, back to the iteration process. You might see if you can devise a method using the above cardboard & thumbtacks routine to predict where they really need to be.

TS

"It only seems kinky the first time"
-- Bumpersticker seen in Lost Wages

 

[RacrDude]

RE: BE A MONKEY NUT AND COPY

You mean R&D don't you...hehe

Rip off & Duplicate

 

[Dave_G]

Re: "Any recommendations for ball joints besides Stock Car Products. "

Have you thought about using Pro Truck ball joints from Stewart & Stewart? Probably a lot stronger than anything you can buy off the shelf. Their made from Maraging steel and use a BeCu copper bearing cup.

Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

 

[geoff]

thanks, ive never heard of them

i was trying to find a little information on that but all i could find was "The Mercedes Martha Stewart" > 1987 420SEL balljoint" lol so i dont think that helped too much. Do you know where i can find any more from them?

the guys on priate 4x4 all swear by MOOG for the most part, but that is much lower speed obviously, albeit pretty much equal forces when you put a set of 44s on something with a small block and 5.10s in granny gear...

the afco stuff looks ok, but i may head over to napa and ask to browse the aisles until i can find something. A rock crawler friend said the older '73ish GM pickup ball joints might work out alright, but ill have to see.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[geoff]

I feel that because the lower was moved up 3.5" then i can move the steering up 3.5" and then ill move the upper up 3.5" that all the geomtry will remain identical to stock. That book title rings a bell i think its at school in the SAE library, i can check this evening, but that is a good idea, its actually what i planned on doing, putting it together, tacking it cycling, break the tackes etc etc the usual. The grid paper with little arms might work out really really well too, tho.

the point you bring up about bumpstreer is a good one, but i dont think it will change in relation to the upper or lower becuase i am moving those mounts up 3.5" also. It should all remain pretty much constant. Now if damn school wasnt taking up all my time i could go and get something done on the truck =)

ill try to find some ball joints today or tomorrow.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[geoff]

ever hear of spicer prochassis or king pins?

supposed to be pretty good i guess, dunno anything about them...

i found this one, but its tough to find any real specs on them unlike uniballs. The only info about the movement is "Allows more suspension travel" real informative right there...

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[Dave_G]

Re: ever hear of spicer prochassis or king pins?

Geoff,
www.protruck.com

If you call them ask for Ron. He can help you with info on the ball joints. I would assume they would sell you some but not really sure if you don't own a pro truck..... I guess you'll have to ask. In regards to using uniballs for lower ball joints you need to consider the effects from braking forces. If you mount them vertical like some of the folks are doing, the braking forces will wear them out or pop them out of their races. Just make sure you use a large enough one that will carry the loads for your application.

Best,
Dave

"I know it all, but I can't remember most of it..."

 

[ntsqd]

So you're essentially moving the spindle pin down 3.5" If you aren't also going to make wider arms that will leave you with stock bumpsteer. I don't know if that's good or bad. Wider arms may or may not leave the bumpsteer alone. As long as you are cutting and welding you should at least have a cursory look at bumpsteer, see if it can be improved or if it's as good as it's going to get w/o a huge amount of work.

TS

"It only seems kinky the first time"
-- Bumpersticker seen in Lost Wages

 

[partybarge_pilot]

Re: ever hear of spicer prochassis or king pins?

Hey Dave, How are the brakes going to gererate more force on the vertical mount than the coilover/impact of landing does on horizontal mount?

 

[geoff]

the arms will be wider too, just gonna have to mock it all up and then play around. Ive got time and the truck isnt needed for daily driving (got a BMX bike and a cherokee ) Im going to tear it down once i can find ball joints that work.

Apparently total chaos got wind that im doing this and thinks im just trying to copy them... just because my idea is somewhat similar doesnt mean its a copy.

anyway thanks for the bumpsteer input tom. What software packages have you used to model a arm trajectories? I have a few 4 bar simulators but nothing really applicable, i was playing around last night and couldnt find much.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[geoff]

Re: ever hear of spicer prochassis or king pins?

Hey Dave thanks for the response, il contact them in a few. Just a quick coment regarding your statement about the uniballs?

I thought uniballs used machined races which phsyically can not pop out beacuse they are 2 pieces that are machined together? I can see this happening on a heim where it is pressed into place, but not on a uniball!

Ill let you know what they say about that ball joint.

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka

 

[geoff]

HOLY MACKAREL

They are 465$ EACH thats insane. gonna have to keep on lookin...

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." -- Willy Wonka