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Senate Approves Warrantless Wiretaps

Apparently unaware there even exists a 4th Amendment, the Senate has approved a measure permitting warrantless wiretapping of private Internet transmissions. This allows installation of Carnivore at the whim of basically any law enforcement agency. The bill was of course sponsored by Dianne Feinstein, who in the past has been intent on disregarding any civil right she deems inconvenient to her purposes.

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Klaus, please explain what Carnivore is and how it works.

EJR Racing #244


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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

I'm shaking the tree boss!


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The general public was hood winked today when the FAA announced that the air traffic system has been restored." Bull S**T !!!" My airplane is still parked in the hangar and there has been no word as to when General Aviation will be allowed to fly again. ABSOLUTELY NONE! Billions of dollars worth of airplanes sit idle across this nation with their owners not knowing if they will ever be used again. Our freedoms have been stripped in more ways than one. Next they'll strip your right to rent a Ryder truck just to move some furniture and Wal-Mart will remove all the box cutters from the shelves.

Welcome to the new Amerika

Dave G
Advanced Machining Dynamics


Crayola Killer
Hey Dave, I understand your upset, but I actually think the goverment is doing this for the safety of all Americans. A lot of people dies on Tuesday, we don't need any more. My 0.02 worth.


I just hope that the nations fundamentals don't get jeopardized.
freedom of speech, religion etc

And increasing intelligence will mean that my and your privacy will not remain that private no more. Look at gun control. If you like firearms or not its a fact that criminals still carry them and your honest citizen is prohibited...Did that law reduce crime committed with guns ? In my opinion no. It just ensures that the victim can't shoot back.

Will we accept that the government can listen to phone conversations without a warrant ? I hope not. Not sure if you guys know, but there is no search warrant needed for e-mail and general internet 'observation' by the government. It takes the cooperation of your ISP. Read the small print in your ISP contracts and policies.

If you are serious about privacy you wouldn't use electronic communication in the first place.

The USA is the number one place to be because of its freedom and civil rights. Take that away and you will have a police state.


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This has always been a delicate balance, and will continue to be. The arguments I read here, have a very familiar feel, infact this discussion occurred during the "old board" vs. "new board" debate. Those who have elected to register have given the operators of this board information about them in order to participate in these discussions. So the balance act continues..... By the way, I like the new board, and have no regrets about registering to use it.

El Chinero

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Hmmm ..we are doing completion check-out flights and flight testing here in Savannah as you read this. #626 did a 14-hour endurance check on Saturday. I'm going up in a GV this morning.


Tony T
El Chismoso


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RE:Hmmm ..we are doing completion check-out flights and flight testing here in Savannah as you read this. #626 did a 14-hour endurance check on Saturday.

I can assure you your endurance flight check was operating under IFR rules and plans and in full time contact with center. If you went above 18,000ft I guarantee you were operating IFR which was allowed. I have just checked with the Riverside FSS as of 1400Z 9/18/01 and VFR GENERAL AVIATION IS PROHIBITED FROM THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE.

The question is WHY?

General aviation was not responsible for any of the attacks. Some say "well, their a potential for causing a terrorist act". No s**t Sherlock!....so are folks renting Ryder trucks and buying fertlizer from Home Depot. The Terrorist used cars to take them to their starting points of their terrorist acts but are they banning cars? NO... they banned curbside check in. WHOPEE! That means the terrorist will have to park in the overflow parking and go to the counter for check in. I'm feeling safer by the moment. I'm still waiting for the next dumb a** statement to come from our government.

The real people getting hurt in this draconian ban on GA is the people who serve them. The FBO's that sell fuel, provide flight training, rent airplanes, and mechanic services who service them have been basically out of work for a week and it is continuing. Many FBO's will go bankrupt and the ripple effect will be felt by all who have anything to do with GA.

And weather people agree or not, here is my prediction what will occur over the next six months.......
1. General Aviation will end as we know it.
2. Our privacy will be invaded in the name of National Security.
3. Our country will suffer the highest unemployment rate in history.
4. CNN will brodcast pictures of children running down the streets of Kabul with their clothes burned off.
5. After #4 occurs, no one will wave their flags anymore and support for war will decay rapidly.
6. Because of #5 we will only do a half a** job at fighting terrorism.
7. We will be no safer than we were last tuesday.

Excuse me while I reset my pressure relief valve......

Dave G


Well-Known Member
I agree completely, although some of these future insights are a tad extreme. As this technology frontier presses on, we are severely limiting our freedom. Our civil rights become narrower by the day. Many of our government's new policies are completely illogical, and will only annoy terrorists rather than stop them. The price of safety will be the loss of freedom, is it worth it? I think not. Is there anything we can do? Well, how much money do you have?


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Why don't we just feed the panic and stupid hysteria? This is AMERICA. If you do not like it, try living somewhere else. Where these "freedoms" already do not exhist. my 2 cents

<font color=red>PAT KAPKO</font color=red>


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I don't think this thread was intended to fuel public hysteria. I like America "as is". Our freedom is what makes this country worth living in. When these freedoms are taken away, we will be no different than "somewhere else". The reason we are concerned is that we don't want to "try living somewhere else". We want to live here, with our freedom intact. The terrorist acts (god bless the victims and all affected) were an attack on freedom, and they are still working on our government in a reverse psychology sort of way. Just my .02
Also, wouldn't a ban on encryption technology completely wipe out all the .com businesses? All order forms are sent using encryption to prevent credit card theft. Hope I don't have to look for a new job soon.


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I'm finding it very hard to believe that ANYONE still believes we are not being watched and listened to with or without a warrant.
Freedom in the information age is only a shadow of what it used to be. I wouldn't worry too much about general aviation Dave,
you will certainly see some more regulations on certain air space but you will not be permanently grounded. I totally agree with you though
in regards to the first war pictures that get televised..all the softies in this country will cry foul. I just maintain the hope that there is not
another 10,000 or more suicide guys already here and ready to blow something else up. I hate to think how bad things could get.
So, in the mean time lets go racing.......peace.

Winning IS everything


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Well - this is just the latest - in case you hadn't noticed - the public land system is systematically being taken away from us because some extremists have convinced some in our gov't that we don't know what we are doing, we are an ill-informed lot that wish to rape and pilliage the land, so they are going to protect it from us. They are going to take away the birthright of thousands of farmers becuase there is a slight chance that there is a bug we need to save. It has been happening folks for awhile now - which is why the fight for Glamis and the rest of the CA desert continues. Which is why off-roaders joined hands with farmers and miners to push back the encroaching raping of the freedom to farm the land, a practice which made this country what it is. Shadow corporations such as the CBD operate with an agenda not to save but to take - its frightening. There are eco-terrorists that move in the same manor as the ones that hit the WTC and the pentagon - they are targeting regular people and businesses in the name of nature - not allah.

In light of the recent tragedies we must shore up our intelligence. I whole hearedly agree, We are all survivors in a sense because they could strike anywhere. I learned that one internet site had several posts from one of the hijackers that went left unchecked until after thousands died, but we must as a nation, remember to keep our governement in check and make sure that our freedoms stay in place within the context of national security.

On the international front - our oppenents are using our freedoms against us, on the national front ...well I guess you can say its the same.

We must stand as americans united and against tyrany - in any form.

<font color=yellow>Paige<font color=yellow>


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paige-you left out the part where the united nations endorses the takeover of private land to be "saved" for someone else. the new world order as pushed by the un wants to see the us pushed back to pre-industrial days so other countries can take a stab at being #1. if you don't have anything worth fighting for, you probably won't fight...

If your gonna go, go BIG


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does anyone have a photo of the NY sky line with the towers still up?

when everything is under control, you are going to slow!!!!!


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Go back to a post by Klaus on 9/11/01 under the subject "Remember Whats Important". He posted one with the towers up.

There's no such thing as "good enough"



No one likes this and I find it extremely hard to condone.

Do consider though that in the past "during wartime" , i.e. WWII, numerous civil liberties were lost for the sake of the struggle. As far as I know we have regained all of libererties lost in that era. I expect that we will see the same once this all plaus out.



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Cool pics, Thanks for sharing. I personally never made it to NY to appreciate the city first hand.

There's no such thing as "good enough"