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fuel injection

drtdevil93

Well-Known Member
#1
anyone have a recommendation on a programmable fuel injection setup for my toyota? im leaning towards the sds system, but ive also heard a lot about motec. thanks in advance.

erik
 

TimHayosh

Well-Known Member
#2
The SDS will do everything you ever wanted. The motec is mucho expen$ive, and the difference would be hard to tell in 99.9999% of applications.
 
#4
Electro Motive is a good one, I was looking into a company in Austrailia that makes a complete system for $1200.00 it included a key pad with it so you dont need a lap top ( it wasnt HALTECH) it begain with an "M" mechtech?? ill try to find name. Motech is way too much $$$
 

geoff

Well-Known Member
#5
I have had extensive experience with a number of injection systems, both setting up tuning and installing. My take is as follows:

Electromotive: I hate it. If you are going with a TEC-II setup, youre nuts. I really dont know much about the toyota fuel injection system as it is, but the most annoying aspect of the TEC-II is this stupid crank trigger that you need to fabricate. We usually machine rings with a magnet on one location of the ring, then weld the ring to the crankpulley, turn the pulley down on a lath and then mount the sensor. Its quite a pain in the ass. Secondly, the tuning resolution on TEC II sucks, as does its software interface. It uses an antiquated DOS program and is not at all user friendly. TEC II has a great reputation becuase it is well known and when many people think standalone they think TEC II or Motec from hearsey, but IMO stay away.

MOTEC: Nothing better, bar none. But ouch, bend over its gonna hurt!!!!!!!!

Autronic: Made by some motec former employees. Killer stuff, still about 3k.

DFI 6/CALMAP: Easy to setup, Easy to install, poor tuning limitations, no datalogging. This is a bare bones setup. You can find it dirt cheap if money is a big issue and it can be tuned to run pretty well. However you will have to retune depending on how many weather conditions you are in and such. Also if you are ever in a jam there is more support in the country for DFI than any other standalone. Overall, a good system for the money.

DFI 7: Badass. Ive only played with demos thus far tho. If you are in a hurry and need to chose in this price bracket, id go Speedpro, but only becuase its already been proven. DFI 7 is too new and has yet to take out FAST... still awaiting results, a good one to keep your eye on.

SEFI8LO/FAST/Speedpro: The latest and greatest. Rivals motec in tunability, easily adapts to most japanese sensors (even tho using the GM replacement sensors is an excellent idea), extremely tunable as it comes with a wideband o2, has a self learning option to get a solid base prgram (runs in closed loop to get a near perfect tune) awesome interface and resolution, uses most japanese oem sensors (again i dont know anything about toyota efi systems, so it might not apply) I did see a FAST system on a turbo toyota running a 22rte and a 60-1 turbo at about 25 psi... it ran an [email protected]

Haltech e6k: Pretty nice system. Decent Resolution, excellent price (about 1k) fair installation (need to use most haltech sensors, but can get away with others) nice software interface easy to tune. Overall excellent middle of the road setup. If youre on a budget and are pretty competent, Haltech is great.

SDS: Ive heard its great ive heard it sucks never played with it. It uses a hand held programmer and i dont think it has datalogging (if you care) and is supposedly pretty simple to install. I would rather get a "real" standalone. great if you dont own a laptop, tho.


I have written this long post, but what it really comes down to is what are you gonna do with the truck? A great option you may want to consider is that if you dont need to control spark, dont!. Let the stock spark system fire on its own and do its own thing, and pickyourself up a Haltech f9. This system controls only fuel delivery, not spark is VERY simple and very cheap (Accordingly). Also one thing i have really wondered is why wont anyone play with boost? It seems 22r's like boost and being in the overbuilt toyota tradition should take kindsly to ~10 psi of t3t4...


Mathmatics is the language of nature.
 

drtdevil93

Well-Known Member
#6
jerry: sds (simple digital systems) is just another fuel management system. check them out at http:///www.sdsefi.com. from what ive been hearing, their advantage is its reliable, simple and cheap. and it comes with an lcd programmer, so you dont need to hook a laptop up.

ive always got all my motor stuff from lc engineering, and i believe they have a kit with everything, including crank pulley. from them for the whole system with bosch injectors, and everything needed its around 1400 dollars. im just worried about what they arent telling me, and i want to make sure im getting something thats gonna work properly. thats why i want to hear about other systems first.

geoff: no forced induction allowed in most sanctioning bodies. plus the unpredictability of turbo lag while cornering, is not something i want to play with. ive heard the whole shpeel of how the new systems have almost no lag, yadda yadda. well, from my experience they have a little, which is too much for me. im just looking for a reliable 250 hp, and lc's 2.6 stroker is easily capable of that.

erik
 

geoff

Well-Known Member
#9
SDS is a very simple setup and rather affordable. The only concern one might have when using that is whether or not it will be adequate in the future. more than likely, it will be just fine. If you decide to get your engine in a supertune, it may not be. Just depends on where you want to take the vehicle to. If you know of people who have dealt with it and are very familiar with how to set it up on a 22r then go for it, as all of the bugs have probably been worked out by LCE. 1400 for a complete system is definately killer (does that include fuel pump too? ) If you want first hand expereicne just search the web for people who are using it.. ask what they think. I actually did know one guy using it on a Nissan and he ended up sweitching to a Motec but never asked what he thought of it.

Regarding the turbos i guess you know what i was gonna say so why bother =) ... Its all in the turbo sizing. A t3 super 60 with a ball bearing center section would spool at idle....
there is such a thing as no lag =) <just trying to be the devils advocate here> but 250 n/a HP does seem fairly optimistic. However if youre builing a truck for the rules, then thats another story entirely.


Mathmatics is the language of nature.
 

Ryno

Well-Known Member
#10
Geoff-

I will fully agree with you that a turbo is the cleanest/ best way to make extra power. Superchargers create alot of heat, and usually end up blowing heads, burning pistons, etc. However, my problem with a huffer on an offroad truck is the fact of vibration, on top of dirt, silt, etc. Then deal with the throttle response issue. I have done many rotary turbos (T-4's, t-5's), and they would easily make 400hp, no problem, but on a street car. For reliability, and simplicity, I would run fuel injection on a race truck, but not the huffer. I'll give carb's another 5 years if that, and everything will be fuel injection. Much better mileage and throttle response, as well as more power. The only downside is $$$, but with all the aftermarket guys out there, I don't think it will be a problem. I can't see SCORE, BITD, MDR, SNORE, etc putting up alot of grief over it either. If you can build a more reliable motor, with more power, where is the downside?

Ryno

Build it like a Rhino, and Leave it be.
 

geoff

Well-Known Member
#11
Well if the sand rails can take the abuse, why cant a truck?? As i see it make a log style manifold from forged 8 gauge stainless steel weldels, brace the [censored] out of it and put a nice small t3 on there. That would be good for 280 wheel horsepower at about 18 psi and truly would have no lag. I have no idea why LCengineering makes that one tubular manifold?? For a truck thats crazy. I mean even for a street car tubes/long runners like that are askin for cracks. The picutre her eis of one of the manifolds i make. THe one for my 22r will be identical, with differnt bore spacing and flange, obviously. There are some rails running these manifolds as well as a bunch of rice rockets and we havent had a single crack to date.




Actually a killer turbo if anyone is looking for a lowbuck project comes from the ford mustang svt or thunderbird turbocoupe or merkur xr4ti. Its a large t3 (small by performance standards) and would spool instnatly. Throttle response is not an issue with this kind of a setup. Peak HP is not what we're goin for, its a nice broad powerband, and reliability.

Mathmatics is the language of nature.
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
#12
The Electro Motive uses a windows based softwear now. As for the need of a lap top. I do not recommend tuning it your self unless you have a chassis dyno or engine dyno. Steve Dose at Lethal Dose Injection in San Diego CA. is the expert in the Electro Motive product. I am ignorant in the field of EFI but what I do know so far is that I have been very happy with Electro motive. Also the top 10 guys in class 1 and 10 use the full Tec II system on their cars and love it. The system from what Steve Dose says is the only system that can be mounted where Mud, rocks, water and sticks will not effect it. Electro Motive also came out with a new system called the Tech 3. It looks like a good choice. As for the crank trigger, it is not that big of a deal to fabricate the mount for it. I would much rather use a crank trigger than a mallory, etc ignition system. The Electro motive uses their own system (GM parts) and it works great. With Haltech you need to run a Mallory or comparable system. In the 1600 car most of the top cars use an Electro Motive Ignition. Why? Well I can say the in Off-road Racing it is much more abusive than 11 second Drag racing.
 

DPpatrol

Well-Known Member
#13
Has anyone heard anything about the tec 3? I've seen adds about it in magazines and on electromotives web page for a while now but i have yet seen any info on its features and such.

jason
 

drtdevil93

Well-Known Member
#15
geoff: thanks for the info. the 1400 is for the ecu, harness, and injectors. i havent been able to get a hold of them to see about the timing (crank trigger, etc.) and the 250 is very achievable with their 2.6 stroker, their headwork, and injection work.

erik

also, i know airking dan vance had a 22r that pushed i think around 270 hp. i dont remember the exact number now. and that was without use of fuel injection
 

Flea

Well-Known Member
#16
wow geoff that car is insane. What does that car do in the quarter mile? cool body too, is that a BMW?

GOD BLESS AMERICA! and hopefully my poor truck too.
 

geoff

Well-Known Member
#17
it is a 7.90 car. It used to be a 9 sec street m3 till the owner wrecked it. He had a great insurance company so what better to do but get a full tube chassis and a ford 9 inch? =)

The car is sick tho 1600 whp. It uses an old LeMans 6 cyl motor with twin 60-1 P trim turbos, all body panels are carbon fiber and besides who doesnt look superpimp racin mustangs and camaros in an m3 ?? That guy always gets all the girls at the races (except for the toothless ones). but this is totally OT so ill stop now

Mathmatics is the language of nature.
 

geoff

Well-Known Member
#19
The car has just been running. Once all the bugs are worked out it should be a 200mph car... it just got to this point recently, just fine tuning is all that is really left.

When it was a street car we had the Tec II on it, fyi.

Mathmatics is the language of nature.
 

desertracer

Well-Known Member
#20
As far as fuel injection I would really suggest the MoTec system. We are running it on our new Class 1 car and it has been perfect. I never knew that so much could be done with fuel injection until I saw our engine builder setup the motor using his laptop computer. The only drawback on this system would be the cost, but you get what you pay for.
 
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