Future state of UTV Classes

Dave Cole 4454

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Dont recall anyone saying you were stooopid. I read back through too, can't find anyone saying you were stupid, as far as my statement maybe you misunderstood? I called the statement dumb, not you. I respect what you've done with your series and would probably have a great time having a cocktail around a campfire with you, but don't expect me to tickle your taint just because you're Dave Cole. If I disagree with you I'll tell you. There have been many suggestions here from racers, but you seem to have already made your mind up on what's best for the class. It's ultimately your series so do as you wish.

Ive used the "I didnt call you a bitch, I said you were being BITCHY"...it has never worked out for me lol.

I hear ya. I really havent made up my mind on anything and also dont think its my decision to make.

This village needs to sort out what we want to be when we grow up. :)

Here's my .02 again for the record.

Unlimited = Run what you brung, 35" tire max.

Pro Modified UTV = OEM pickup points and Factory Skins, aftermarket chassis ok
33" tire max, no portals

Pro Stock UTV = OEM Chassis, basically SCOREs Pro Stock, 33" tire max

For desert and short course, offer Pro Stock NA

The chassis rule in Mod allows pro race teams to build a sustainable chassis.

The tire size rule reduces runaway drivetrain costs while also allowing Tire Mfgs to invest in a race tire without having to worry that their molds will be made obsolete.
 

jon coleman

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Ive used the "I didnt call you a bitch, I said you were being BITCHY"...it has never worked out for me lol.

I hear ya. I really havent made up my mind on anything and also dont think its my decision to make.

This village needs to sort out what we want to be when we grow up. :)

Here's my .02 again for the record.

Unlimited = Run what you brung, 35" tire max.

Pro Modified UTV = OEM pickup points and Factory Skins, aftermarket chassis ok
33" tire max, no portals

Pro Stock UTV = OEM Chassis, basically SCOREs Pro Stock, 33" tire max

For desert and short course, offer Pro Stock NA

The chassis rule in Mod allows pro race teams to build a sustainable chassis.

The tire size rule reduces runaway drivetrain costs while also allowing Tire Mfgs to invest in a race tire without having to worry that their molds will be made obsolete.
jeeez, i can even remember 33 inch tires were the bomb on an 8 truck😱, ive Always said tires are the ultimate spec class/limited class regulator
 
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Ive used the "I didnt call you a bitch, I said you were being BITCHY"...it has never worked out for me lol.

I hear ya. I really havent made up my mind on anything and also dont think its my decision to make.

This village needs to sort out what we want to be when we grow up. :)

Here's my .02 again for the record.

Unlimited = Run what you brung, 35" tire max.

Pro Modified UTV = OEM pickup points and Factory Skins, aftermarket chassis ok
33" tire max, no portals

Pro Stock UTV = OEM Chassis, basically SCOREs Pro Stock, 33" tire max

For desert and short course, offer Pro Stock NA

The chassis rule in Mod allows pro race teams to build a sustainable chassis.

The tire size rule reduces runaway drivetrain costs while also allowing Tire Mfgs to invest in a race tire without having to worry that their molds will be made obsolete.
Dave,
I think we are mostly on the same page but maybe for rock racing you allow 35" tires and multiple shocks per corner and bump stops. Keep desert to a 33" tire and single shock. Tire size, shocks and 1000cc powersports engine should keep even the unlimited class somewhat in check.

DESERT Classes
1. Pro Open/Unlimited - Any chassis, 80" wide, 33" tires, 1000cc Powersports engine, single shock per corner, no air/hydro bump stops and the rest is open

2. Pro Turbo - Started life as a production UTV, 80" wide, 33" tires, stock lower frame, stock motor, stock turbo, stock suspension points, single shock per corner, no bump stops, hood and fenders required

3. Pro NA - Started life as a production UTV, 80" wide, 33" tires, stock lower frame, stock motor, stock suspension points, single shock per corner, no bump stops, hood and fenders required

4. Stock Turbo - stock chassis with a cage and gussets, stock suspension with gussets or aftermarket stock replacement arms, stock motor trans and diffs, stock fuel tank or fuel cell not to exceed 12gal, all stock body panels required

5. Stock NA - stock chassis with a cage and gussets, stock suspension with gussets or aftermarket stock replacement arms, stock motor trans and diffs, stock fuel tank or fuel cell not to exceed 12gal, all stock body panels required
 

Dave Cole 4454

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I love the 33 max tire size but Im trying to create a compromise amongst all the stakeholders.

OEMs
Racers
Tire Companies
Shock Manufacturers
Land owners/managers

Coupled with the overarching goal of getting more people racing.

The barn door is already open on 35s IMHO

But if we can get consensus, hell yeah.

Regarding aftermarket chassis vs OEM pans in the 'mod' class, it has been proven over and over there is no performance advantage to a aftermarket chassis with stock pick up points. The gain is in not having a disposable chassis that needs to overhauled every race. If you are chasing a series, we should allow you to build a more robust chassis. If you choose to race a stock pan, you arent giving up speed or performance in any given race.


My .02 informed by a half dozen calls with racers and analyzing race results.
 

NIKAL

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I love the 33 max tire size but Im trying to create a compromise amongst all the stakeholders.

OEMs
Racers
Tire Companies
Shock Manufacturers
Land owners/managers

Coupled with the overarching goal of getting more people racing.

The barn door is already open on 35s IMHO

But if we can get consensus, hell yeah.

Regarding aftermarket chassis vs OEM pans in the 'mod' class, it has been proven over and over there is no performance advantage to a aftermarket chassis with stock pick up points. The gain is in not having a disposable chassis that needs to overhauled every race. If you are chasing a series, we should allow you to build a more robust chassis. If you choose to race a stock pan, you arent giving up speed or performance in any given race.


My .02 informed by a half dozen calls with racers and analyzing race results.
Dave I think the biggest issues with allowing aftermarket chassis with “stock pick up points” is you will need to police that very closely and build jigs to check top finishing cars. This also opens the door to any one and any brand of UTV having custom built lower frames and pivot points.

To do this right you will be tearing cars down to mount fixture jigs to the chassis, you will need a jig for each model and brand, and hopefully that does not change year to year!

Pulling in or pushing out a pivot point a 1/4 to 1/2 inch or rotating pivot point mounts can drastically change and improve suspension & steering geometry. This is both front & rear suspension too! By stating you must run a OEM manufactured lower chassis with stock suspension & engine mounting points, you can eliminate jigs and tear down inspections, as you can visibly see if it’s stock. If it looks like they altered the stock mounts, then you could tape measure to see if altered. I think at that point it’s time to question DQ’ing or banning people if your finding cheater modified stock pivots.
 

Robin Hood

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Lets discuss what/how race UTVs look like over the next decade.

For me it is pretty simple, I do not like making rules that require ANY tools or even effort to determine compliance. (Motor displacement, tire balls, weight, etc) way too hard to enforce and too easy to cheat.

The reasons why UTVs are attractive is the low barrier to entry (cost and mechanical talent necessary to compete) and Industry support.
I agree with Nikal...I don't see how you aftermarket chassis fits into your model?
 

E.Hagle

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35s on a stock drivetrain has lasted on our 4 seat turbo S for 1000 miles of pretty hard driving. Never shredded a belt. I put our 32” BFG on the scale and then a 35” tensor and the weight difference was only about 3 pounds at the largest differential.
 

JerryB

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Dave I think the biggest issues with allowing aftermarket chassis with “stock pick up points” is you will need to police that very closely and build jigs to check top finishing cars. This also opens the door to any one and any brand of UTV having custom built lower frames and pivot points.

To do this right you will be tearing cars down to mount fixture jigs to the chassis, you will need a jig for each model and brand, and hopefully that does not change year to year!

Pulling in or pushing out a pivot point a 1/4 to 1/2 inch or rotating pivot point mounts can drastically change and improve suspension & steering geometry. This is both front & rear suspension too! By stating you must run a OEM manufactured lower chassis with stock suspension & engine mounting points, you can eliminate jigs and tear down inspections, as you can visibly see if it’s stock. If it looks like they altered the stock mounts, then you could tape measure to see if altered. I think at that point it’s time to question DQ’ing or banning people if your finding cheater modified stock pivots.
Agreed, there are huge performance gains to be made by someone tweaking pivot points and thus geometry in small increments which would easily be overlooked in tech. In my experience tech inspection has become so overwhelming for the promoters it's pretty much a "do you have all your safety equipment" and move on to the next. Allen from BITD has openly stated it's not their job to police chassis construction, it's your safety so make it as safe as you think you're comfortable with. So who and how will the chassis design be policed? If it's one of those instances of you're fine doing whatever you want unless someone files a protest, then like it has been talked about at length in other discussions, what's the point of the rulebook.

I dont see tech throwing a fixture under everyone's car to measure the chassis. Do we need to go to tagging chassis after a full inspection? I don't know.
 

Total Loss

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Sounds like we are starting a new class...TCL..Trophy Car Light.

Stock class will probably grow...my team is building one right now...looking forward to that class as it is more to our roots.
 

NIKAL

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35s on a stock drivetrain has lasted on our 4 seat turbo S for 1000 miles of pretty hard driving. Never shredded a belt. I put our 32” BFG on the scale and then a 35” tensor and the weight difference was only about 3 pounds at the largest differential.
It’s not about if the drivetrain can survive a 35 or how much they weigh. It’s about controlling the technology and money. Tire size is like a speed and money limiter. No matter what you do you are only going to go so fast with a specific sized tire. We all can agree the UTV has gotten faster in the past 5-6 years. But that correlates with tire size. Only 8-10 years ago they were racing on 27 & 28 inch tires. Then as they figured out better clutching, stronger drivetrain, axles, suspension and you saw 30’s. Then the rules put a max of 30 inch tires. Then a few years later it was increased to 32. Now it’s 33. If you don’t want these to be class 10 cars, then we need to find limits, and tire size & engine size are the first places you start with.

Look at how much faster class 10 got once they started running 35’s. It was not that long ago either. Could you imagine going back to a 33?
 

michael.gonzalez

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It’s not about if the drivetrain can survive a 35 or how much they weigh. It’s about controlling the technology and money. Tire size is like a speed and money limiter. No matter what you do you are only going to go so fast with a specific sized tire. We all can agree the UTV has gotten faster in the past 5-6 years. But that correlates with tire size. Only 8-10 years ago they were racing on 27 & 28 inch tires. Then as they figured out better clutching, stronger drivetrain, axles, suspension and you saw 30’s. Then the rules put a max of 30 inch tires. Then a few years later it was increased to 32. Now it’s 33. If you don’t want these to be class 10 cars, then we need to find limits, and tire size & engine size are the first places you start with.

Look at how much faster class 10 got once they started running 35’s. It was not that long ago either. Could you imagine going back to a 33?
Class 10 does not have a tire size limit. It is ONLY engine limited.

Similar to how many are saying 1000cc limit for UTV's.
 

T.martin

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I remember the start of UTV racing. I could run most of them down in my Jeepspeed. Why does it seem that classes change to go faster? If you want to go faster, change to a different class. Bigger tires = deeper ruts = slot car racing; just drive your car into the ruts, hit the gas and go. Ruts make racing with 33" tires and solid axles so much fun.
 

jon coleman

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If you want to challenge that someone is running an out of spec pick up point, the potentially offending car needs to bolt a stock arm on. If a stock arm fits, you must acquit. ;)

This isnt a game breaker at all.
OR, a claimer rule on the stock class chassis😱you can do what ever, But, if someone buys you a stock replacement frame, you give it up& start a new build, with your new oem frame
 

JerryB

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If you want to challenge that someone is running an out of spec pick up point, the potentially offending car needs to bolt a stock arm on. If a stock arm fits, you must acquit. ;)

This isnt a game breaker at all.
So just to confirm, Dave Cole said koh, bitd, legacy and score will now have a complete set of stock front and rear arms for every make and model at post race tech for any car which has been protested? 🤔
 

NIKAL

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If you want to challenge that someone is running an out of spec pick up point, the potentially offending car needs to bolt a stock arm on. If a stock arm fits, you must acquit. ;)

This isnt a game breaker at all.
Dave it should not be left to the racers to be policing themselves. That’s amateur hour! Any real racing series, be it auto racing, bicycling or running. The sanctioning body needs to make and enforce the rules. If off road wants to be amateur then let’s drop the “Pro” and be honest and call this a hobby. Even the local Saturday night circle track racing series has better rules tech inspections then all the off road series combined.

But back to your thoughts of using a stock arm to test fitment. That only checks width between mounting points. That would not check if the stock mounting location was kept. I could narrow the frame rails, pull the tabs in closer to the tubes, push them out farther, rotate them up or down on the tube. Move them forward or backwards on the frame rail. Doing any of those can and will change things like camber, caster, scrub & bumpsteer. In the rear of a radius rod suspension UTV there can be huge gains if you can tweak pivot points.

If a sanctioning body chooses to allow custom made complete chassis, and not inspect with some sort of measuring device this will happen.
 
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Dave Cole 4454

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Nikal, I would submit building a car that doesnt comply to the rules to race UTVs in the desert where race karma is more important than any other asset you have, is amateur.

We tried to manage the performance rules of our limited class entries at the series level. It was a never ending bitchfest.

We elect class reps from both the west and the east and they manage the in-class rule issues. We intervene if it cannot be resolved amongst themselves.

We went from having 2 protests per race to less than 1 protest per year.

You will not convince me that we are doing it wrong or in an amateur way.

Compliance is near 100% and racer satisfaction is higher than ever.

That same method of management by the drivers is how we do rule changes as well. If a class wants a rule change, the class rep formalizes the change and we push a survey to all the current class racers. If it receives 2/3 support and doesnt sacrifice safety, it is approved and executed. The series has no technical way to arbitrarily create rules unless it involves safety.
 
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