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GOOD, BAD AND UGLY ABOUT NORRA M1K 2019

43mod

Well-Known Member
With the length of Mig29’s post it shouldn’t be long before we are at page 14.
If enough people are willing to pay $500 per entry for pit support + fuel costs it might be possible for an enterprising local (or NORRA) to make some serious money dumping Pemex into UTV's during next year's race. It doesn't take too many racers x $500 to have the budget available to hire a good amount of manpower and purchase more UTV specific fuel cans.
Sounds like herding cats to me.
 

BajaboundMoto

Well-Known Member
Eliseo, our tenth year racing the MEX1K and it always gets better, big thanks to you and your team. Now with the unpleasant stuff, Baja Voyager is the fly in everyone's cocktail. I get it, he's a hustler and there's money to be made but seriously what can be done about his strangle on hotel rooms? Teams can no longer book on their own hotels, sounds like NORRA is in the same boat too? Not only overcharging he's also overbooked hotels and double screwing people. We don't need his "help" figuring out our hotels, what we need is for hotels to be available to choose from through regular channels not from the "ticket scalper" reselling rooms at top dollar on his own terms. How can we get hotels to stop cooperating with him?
Before I get into 2020 suggestions...
LOVE THIS!

Sometimes a finger points at me. Yes I book a lot of beds, usually about. 40 beds per town, but we had 11 bikes under our tent and friends with 2-5 race cars (depends on which town). We don’t screw people overcharging and sometimes give away unneeded rooms to those in need.
Considering that it looks like JC has done quite well financially I’ve considered doing the same (would be nice to race the buggy more, but can’t afford it) as JC , but , I can’t stoop that low and do that to my racing friends.
 

BajaboundMoto

Well-Known Member
* We’re very happy there are finally penalties!
This was our 10th year at new NORRA and after a couple days we were like, “DAMN, they’re throwing more penalties at racers than ALL 9 years prior combined!”.
Great!

* re: Awards party the same evening we finish...
Party the same night is too tight for scoring. This year there were a lot of scoring changes Friday. Give NORRA the chance to make it all correct(ish) or expect another awards party with super messed-up scores and people whining.

* No fireworks show. It costs $ that maybe some racers would rather have reflected in a lower entry fee.
And while Marty can be long winded, I (for once) thought his delivery was good this time.
The 2nd and 3rd place banners were great.

* re: Earlier comments about starting order each day...
Starting in order in class each day is dumb. So if you’re in a 1600 or vintage or whatever and you prove to be faster than that TTS guy you want to start behind him every day? Lame.
Faster earlier, slower later.
Dakar understands this and will automatically take proven faster cars/bikes and seed them earlier in a start after a late finish the day before.
I’m obviously meaning IF a big/fast car had an issue, not because they suck and are slow.

* Everyone needs to stop relying on technology.
Driving off LeadNav, expecting the Stella to tell you of dangers, etc is foolish.
And then to complain later that a danger wasn’t in the GPS/LeadNav/Stella or whatever is lame.
IMO people need to DRIVE and not just go off technology (point made at Mint ‘19).
The roadbook has ALL those dangers and is the best resource.
Speaking roadbook... Seeing how many drivers/riders are trying to use only GPS maybe the Stella can have a short 25mph zone at some of the bad “dangers”? Like the cliff that caught a few or the downhill Left before Cadajé, have a short 25 zone just before it only so the Stella gets your attention.
I’m not saying a bunch of dangers, just a few known ones. And the 25 zone for those can be overlooked in scoring, no penalty, as it’s just a safety feature.

* No parties each night, or maybe don’t cater them. The catered cost includes 1 person (?) with your entry? Might be another way to get the entry cost lower and the NORRA staff headache less.
Also would make people patronize local places, spread out the $.

* Tire size rule was floated after ‘18, why not implement it?

* I understand “why” the race numbers are like they are, but maybe it’s time to get past that.
Car numbers signifying class and bike designation helps everyone understand who’s where, especially on the radio.
Also may help those like @D10R10717 when they request an earlier start (number/class affiliation understanding).
Kinda like, Tom Bird got hit by 1818, so what’s that, a UTV?

* Transfer stage top speed IS needed (not really sure it was enforced this year, just going off earlier comments).
A couple years ago a top car guy who’s considered a legend to many was telling us they finish a stage and immediately start prepping the truck for the next stage. Then they blast down the Hwy at 120 MPH to start before their time window closes.
That’s INSANE.
Race cars are also dicing for position on the Hwy. totally irresponsible.
We’re asking for trouble and not respecting the locals.

* JC / BV is a PITA, but he’s not going away unless the racers give up on him.
Sure some people get good service but that’s also at the expense of someone who got screwed.
He has a pretty brilliant way of scooping rooms and has for sure already got holeshot on ‘20.
NORRA would need to move the race date drastically to make it happen, and keep the date secret.

* re: The release of course files...
Car guys have it easy, just have PCI load it.
Bike guys are more time consuming because it needs to be done with lap top.
Jen did all 11 of our bike GPSs plus about 5 other riders looked her up in ETown. We only got the file the day we were leaving to ETown. That’s pretty tight.

* re: Mag7 Pits...
Sure there were problems, but it can be fixed (I might know someone capable of helping).
Bashing Mag7 is uncalled for.
Imagine you trying to set this up for only your entry, much-less a lot of racers. Huge hassle. IMO not worth the $.
As for fueling cars, EVERY car fuels differently. Some are crazy dangerous set-ups. Anyone expecting a quick fill needs to be in those pit guys shoes and try to figure out 50 different cars with drivers on adrenaline.
IMO Mag7 & NORRA should make the fuel range needed for the event LONGER, like 100 miles. Other than stock UTV it’s super simple to make anything go 100+.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
* We’re very happy there are finally penalties!
This was our 10th year at new NORRA and after a couple days we were like, “DAMN, they’re throwing more penalties at racers than ALL 9 years prior combined!”.
Great!

* re: Awards party the same evening we finish...
Party the same night is too tight for scoring. This year there were a lot of scoring changes Friday. Give NORRA the chance to make it all correct(ish) or expect another awards party with super messed-up scores and people whining.

* No fireworks show. It costs $ that maybe some racers would rather have reflected in a lower entry fee.
And while Marty can be long winded, I (for once) thought his delivery was good this time.
The 2nd and 3rd place banners were great.

* re: Earlier comments about starting order each day...
Starting in order in class each day is dumb. So if you’re in a 1600 or vintage or whatever and you prove to be faster than that TTS guy you want to start behind him every day? Lame.
Faster earlier, slower later.
Dakar understands this and will automatically take proven faster cars/bikes and seed them earlier in a start after a late finish the day before.
I’m obviously meaning IF a big/fast car had an issue, not because they suck and are slow.

* Everyone needs to stop relying on technology.
Driving off LeadNav, expecting the Stella to tell you of dangers, etc is foolish.
And then to complain later that a danger wasn’t in the GPS/LeadNav/Stella or whatever is lame.
IMO people need to DRIVE and not just go off technology (point made at Mint ‘19).
The roadbook has ALL those dangers and is the best resource.
Speaking roadbook... Seeing how many drivers/riders are trying to use only GPS maybe the Stella can have a short 25mph zone at some of the bad “dangers”? Like the cliff that caught a few or the downhill Left before Cadajé, have a short 25 zone just before it only so the Stella gets your attention.
I’m not saying a bunch of dangers, just a few known ones. And the 25 zone for those can be overlooked in scoring, no penalty, as it’s just a safety feature.

* No parties each night, or maybe don’t cater them. The catered cost includes 1 person (?) with your entry? Might be another way to get the entry cost lower and the NORRA staff headache less.
Also would make people patronize local places, spread out the $.

* Tire size rule was floated after ‘18, why not implement it?

* I understand “why” the race numbers are like they are, but maybe it’s time to get past that.
Car numbers signifying class and bike designation helps everyone understand who’s where, especially on the radio.
Also may help those like @D10R10717 when they request an earlier start (number/class affiliation understanding).
Kinda like, Tom Bird got hit by 1818, so what’s that, a UTV?

* Transfer stage top speed IS needed (not really sure it was enforced this year, just going off earlier comments).
A couple years ago a top car guy who’s considered a legend to many was telling us they finish a stage and immediately start prepping the truck for the next stage. Then they blast down the Hwy at 120 MPH to start before their time window closes.
That’s INSANE.
Race cars are also dicing for position on the Hwy. totally irresponsible.
We’re asking for trouble and not respecting the locals.

* JC / BV is a PITA, but he’s not going away unless the racers give up on him.
Sure some people get good service but that’s also at the expense of someone who got screwed.
He has a pretty brilliant way of scooping rooms and has for sure already got holeshot on ‘20.
NORRA would need to move the race date drastically to make it happen, and keep the date secret.

* re: The release of course files...
Car guys have it easy, just have PCI load it.
Bike guys are more time consuming because it needs to be done with lap top.
Jen did all 11 of our bike GPSs plus about 5 other riders looked her up in ETown. We only got the file the day we were leaving to ETown. That’s pretty tight.

* re: Mag7 Pits...
Sure there were problems, but it can be fixed (I might know someone capable of helping).
Bashing Mag7 is uncalled for.
Imagine you trying to set this up for only your entry, much-less a lot of racers. Huge hassle. IMO not worth the $.
As for fueling cars, EVERY car fuels differently. Some are crazy dangerous set-ups. Anyone expecting a quick fill needs to be in those pit guys shoes and try to figure out 50 different cars with drivers on adrenaline.
IMO Mag7 & NORRA should make the fuel range needed for the event LONGER, like 100 miles. Other than stock UTV it’s super simple to make anything go 100+.
Tim, thanks as always for the great feedback, you are one of the most worried NORRA supporters that have been with us since day 1 and we really appreciate it, we are really looking forward to preserving the good and make better the bad, I got your ideas and will work on them, we have a few challenges to overcome in order to get them done but not impossible.

Penalties, well finally we got a Tracking System that is reliable to be able to do it, and will stay for the future, thank god for it I was really happy, not perfect like every electronic device but it works better.

Awards I agree, can't happen the same evening, we need timing and scoring, penalty reviews, etc, not enough time to do a good job.

No Fireworks, REALLY :( where is the fun? we always try to get them paid by a sponsor and will continue trying until no one wants to pay for them, come on its fun !!

Starting order is and will continue to be always a challenge but it is what it is, can´t start by class every day, the problem that we have every year is slow cars in front of fast cars or slow drivers in front of fast drivers, how do we prevent that from happening well I need to have more time to review all of the start orders every night and identify who to bump up for safety, problem is when you have a stock utv field of 25 entries and you know there is a fast driver that had a bad day and needs to be bumped but how high compared to his competition before the rest of them complain about having that guy bumped up because we are favoring him or stuff like that, bumping someone on the start order does not modify the timing or scoring of the event, it only makes it easier for passing and safer, if a certain driver had a bad day he is already down on time but if car is fixed he will be fast again. bottom line I think start order should be reviewed closer than it has been now by us and arrange based on expertise, also it is a big responsibility from the guy that had a bad day to come and request a bump up on start order for safety and a lot of teams did not do that.

Relying on Technology, that is a great subject, I agree, come on we are NOT MILLENIALS, Like Sal Fish always said at his races let's drive what we can see, but yes now that Stella proved it works I can also add some stop and go features or add more triple dangers, etc, play a little bit more with tech.

Parties each night I am looking into it some like San Felipe might not happen but I will have some other guys saying why did you do that, where do I find the middle balance point, if we cancel a certain party we save money on party wristbands but not much, also because big part of the parties expenses are also sponsored by people or companies that want a party and step up and say I can pay for this or that etc, racers are not paying in full the cost of parties.

Tire size rule, that is a can of worms, scared to open again, don't have an idea on how far should we go, lots of different opinions, how to find balance on that, bottom line is that the event needs 200 entries to be able to subsist and vintage entries are not enough to cover that, UTV field has been growing and has become a big deal and supporter, evolution remains to be the larger field as well as bikes, I am open to suggestions here ?

Transfer stage top speed, we have never policed it because if you get a ticket from Federales you are DQ, if you get in an accident on highway as a result of reckless driving you are DQ but I agree, federales are not everywhere and now with Stella we can police it, I am also open to suggestions here, IMO 60 mph max on transits is too low even knowing highway max speed is 80 KPH but what do you suggest here, ideas ??

JC, JC, JC damn again? no idea what to do.

Course files release, someone suggested leave day 1 until very last but share the rest a week before, not a bad idea, might do that, but still, need to find a way to prevent teams from prerunning the course.

Mag 7 has been a key part of NORRA and yes agree we need to improve there, i have not met with them after this race but will definitely do when they are ready, got good suggestions and feedback for them to improve, Stock UTV field was huge this year, some of them even on ECO mode cant do 100 miles, we have to either find a way to have a spare fuel cell for them to carry more fuel or have fewer splash pits for them from Mag 7 every 60 miles, a big challenge IMO.
 

Zambo

Well-Known Member
FWIW, consider detaching the awards ceremony from the party. Honestly a party is music, drinking and most importantly, mingling and talking. You can't really do the mingling and talking part while the awards are going on without being rude. The party should start at the finish line and go all night. Every racer that finishes should be there congratulating the next guys that cross the finish line and meet them with drinks in their hands. Everyone should be greasy, dirty, dusty, and drunk, and their cars and trucks should be there so everyone can look at the carnage. Hand out awards the next day sometime while people nurse their hangover with bloody marys and mimosas.
 

BajaJT

Well-Known Member
Eliseo.

Ordered two trophy's for our win in 803, haven't seen them could you check to see if they have been shipped?

Thanks
JT
 

lyhoftom

Member
Tim, thanks as always for the great feedback, you are one of the most worried NORRA supporters that have been with us since day 1 and we really appreciate it, we are really looking forward to preserving the good and make better the bad, I got your ideas and will work on them, we have a few challenges to overcome in order to get them done but not impossible.

Penalties, well finally we got a Tracking System that is reliable to be able to do it, and will stay for the future, thank god for it I was really happy, not perfect like every electronic device but it works better.

Awards I agree, can't happen the same evening, we need timing and scoring, penalty reviews, etc, not enough time to do a good job.

No Fireworks, REALLY :( where is the fun? we always try to get them paid by a sponsor and will continue trying until no one wants to pay for them, come on its fun !!

Starting order is and will continue to be always a challenge but it is what it is, can´t start by class every day, the problem that we have every year is slow cars in front of fast cars or slow drivers in front of fast drivers, how do we prevent that from happening well I need to have more time to review all of the start orders every night and identify who to bump up for safety, problem is when you have a stock utv field of 25 entries and you know there is a fast driver that had a bad day and needs to be bumped but how high compared to his competition before the rest of them complain about having that guy bumped up because we are favoring him or stuff like that, bumping someone on the start order does not modify the timing or scoring of the event, it only makes it easier for passing and safer, if a certain driver had a bad day he is already down on time but if car is fixed he will be fast again. bottom line I think start order should be reviewed closer than it has been now by us and arrange based on expertise, also it is a big responsibility from the guy that had a bad day to come and request a bump up on start order for safety and a lot of teams did not do that.

Relying on Technology, that is a great subject, I agree, come on we are NOT MILLENIALS, Like Sal Fish always said at his races let's drive what we can see, but yes now that Stella proved it works I can also add some stop and go features or add more triple dangers, etc, play a little bit more with tech.

Parties each night I am looking into it some like San Felipe might not happen but I will have some other guys saying why did you do that, where do I find the middle balance point, if we cancel a certain party we save money on party wristbands but not much, also because big part of the parties expenses are also sponsored by people or companies that want a party and step up and say I can pay for this or that etc, racers are not paying in full the cost of parties.

Tire size rule, that is a can of worms, scared to open again, don't have an idea on how far should we go, lots of different opinions, how to find balance on that, bottom line is that the event needs 200 entries to be able to subsist and vintage entries are not enough to cover that, UTV field has been growing and has become a big deal and supporter, evolution remains to be the larger field as well as bikes, I am open to suggestions here ?

Transfer stage top speed, we have never policed it because if you get a ticket from Federales you are DQ, if you get in an accident on highway as a result of reckless driving you are DQ but I agree, federales are not everywhere and now with Stella we can police it, I am also open to suggestions here, IMO 60 mph max on transits is too low even knowing highway max speed is 80 KPH but what do you suggest here, ideas ??

JC, JC, JC damn again? no idea what to do.

Course files release, someone suggested leave day 1 until very last but share the rest a week before, not a bad idea, might do that, but still, need to find a way to prevent teams from prerunning the course.

Mag 7 has been a key part of NORRA and yes agree we need to improve there, i have not met with them after this race but will definitely do when they are ready, got good suggestions and feedback for them to improve, Stock UTV field was huge this year, some of them even on ECO mode cant do 100 miles, we have to either find a way to have a spare fuel cell for them to carry more fuel or have fewer splash pits for them from Mag 7 every 60 miles, a big challenge IMO.
While there were a few issues with Mag7, this is specifically in reference to the splash pits...just make sure they're where they're supposed to be. I was one of the stock SXSs, the YXZ with the smallest tank in the field, the recovery crew even sought is out before the start thinking they were going to be feeling is regularly. The pits we're supposed to be every 70 miles, we can go 89.3 apparently, that's when we ran out on Day 3. IF they were in the right spot as advertised, everyone in our class would have been fine with no need for sketchy additional gas on board or the added cost/possibly limiting certain models with a fuel cell requirement. Besides the quality of service issue that others have raised, getting them in the planned spot avoids you starting all over with another group.
+1 on Zambo's finish line party, awards brunch there next day
 

bajakeanu

Well-Known Member
Numerous bike riders did not follow the rider notes and the road books, plus they were told at the riders meeting, and hand outs were given on day two telling us to stay off the main roads. But it didn’t do any good, while I was on the course and was second bike OA
at rm114-131 they where flying down the main road flat out while I was only able to hit 50mph. So in that 17 miles 3-4 bikes pass me
And four more bikes behind me admitted also
To staying on the main road instead of the course, making up time. But nothing was done. Why than give u a roadbook with the course notes if know one follows them???
 

rustyb

Well-Known Member
This was my 4th NORRA, second time on a quad (second time I only made it halfway through day 3, AAARRRGGGGHHHH!), next year on a bike. Have not even tried to use the roadbook, scares me to try to read terrain and ride while trying to read the roadbook and scroll. Not sure what to do about people going on the highway, I probably did it too, I personally don't want roadbook use mandated, and I'm guessing most motos weren't using them.

I personally like the daily finish line parties (ironic as I'm not a very social person and don't drink). I think it's great to finish a leg and be able to eat and hydrate right away, as well as having food for the crew with little or no wait. As far as the awards party, my only experience there is to drop off my teammates and then after the fireworks go pick up the drunken fools, but they certainly seem to enjoy it.

Chinolas, thanks for coming on here and asking for opinions, much appreciated!!
 

bajakeanu

Well-Known Member
What happen to the penalties ???
when you don't follow the riders notes the road book or the gps with the course on it?? Who's fault is it if they don't want to navigate and only follow the line
which must be zoomed out because there are not on the marked course?? @ rm116 turn off main road, @ rm123 cross over main road to the left side @ rm131 turn onto main speed zone 35mph.

57827040675__1B6EEA63-7E5F-4E30-9341-1ED838374EF6.JPG
IMG_3387.PNGIMG_3385.PNGIMG_3384.PNG
 
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Baja Dad

Well-Known Member
Numerous bike riders did not follow the rider notes and the road books, plus they were told at the riders meeting, and hand outs were given on day two telling us to stay off the main roads. But it didn’t do any good, while I was on the course and was second bike OA
at rm114-131 they where flying down the main road flat out while I was only able to hit 50mph. So in that 17 miles 3-4 bikes pass me
And four more bikes behind me admitted also
To staying on the main road instead of the course, making up time. But nothing was done. Why than give u a roadbook with the course notes if know one follows them???
that is because they were using GPS only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Road books should be mandatory if you use GPS they should get MAX Day Penalties +5 hours added to there time.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
FWIW, consider detaching the awards ceremony from the party. Honestly a party is music, drinking and most importantly, mingling and talking. You can't really do the mingling and talking part while the awards are going on without being rude. The party should start at the finish line and go all night. Every racer that finishes should be there congratulating the next guys that cross the finish line and meet them with drinks in their hands. Everyone should be greasy, dirty, dusty, and drunk, and their cars and trucks should be there so everyone can look at the carnage. Hand out awards the next day sometime while people nurse their hangover with bloody marys and mimosas.
Zambo looks like you are spying on me for the 500, LOL that is exactly the idea we have for the next NORRA 500 a big finish line epic party on Saturday Night with Food Trucks, beer garden craft beer and tribute band etc and Awards the next day with a great buffet and Hangover cure bloody marys and mimosas, I swear it is the exact idea.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
Eliseo.

Ordered two trophy's for our win in 803, haven't seen them could you check to see if they have been shipped?

Thanks
JT
They should have been delivered by now but that is on MIKE´S hands, let me know if you got them.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
While there were a few issues with Mag7, this is specifically in reference to the splash pits...just make sure they're where they're supposed to be. I was one of the stock SXSs, the YXZ with the smallest tank in the field, the recovery crew even sought is out before the start thinking they were going to be feeling is regularly. The pits we're supposed to be every 70 miles, we can go 89.3 apparently, that's when we ran out on Day 3. IF they were in the right spot as advertised, everyone in our class would have been fine with no need for sketchy additional gas on board or the added cost/possibly limiting certain models with a fuel cell requirement. Besides the quality of service issue that others have raised, getting them in the planned spot avoids you starting all over with another group.
+1 on Zambo's finish line party, awards brunch there next day
Pits for the next NORRA 500 will be every 60 miles for stock UTV´s and Moto´s, learned my lesson and will not happen again, whoever will do pits for us in the future will be supervised by our course crews prior to start the stage to verify they are in the right location and well equipped for the task.

Zambo´s Finish Line party will happen at the 500.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
Numerous bike riders did not follow the rider notes and the road books, plus they were told at the riders meeting, and hand outs were given on day two telling us to stay off the main roads. But it didn’t do any good, while I was on the course and was second bike OA
at rm114-131 they where flying down the main road flat out while I was only able to hit 50mph. So in that 17 miles 3-4 bikes pass me
And four more bikes behind me admitted also
To staying on the main road instead of the course, making up time. But nothing was done. Why than give u a roadbook with the course notes if know one follows them???
A lot of Speeding Penalties where issued for day 2 on mostly all moto´s, those penalties where assesed to the bikes that stayed in the Main Road since that was forbidden, please check the attached link to check them the are identified as D2 Speeding Total, if Stella missed someone it was because their unit was not working i remember at least 2 cases on day 2.

NORRA: National Off-Road Racing Association, Home of the Mexican 1000 Rally
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
This was my 4th NORRA, second time on a quad (second time I only made it halfway through day 3, AAARRRGGGGHHHH!), next year on a bike. Have not even tried to use the roadbook, scares me to try to read terrain and ride while trying to read the roadbook and scroll. Not sure what to do about people going on the highway, I probably did it too, I personally don't want roadbook use mandated, and I'm guessing most motos weren't using them.

I personally like the daily finish line parties (ironic as I'm not a very social person and don't drink). I think it's great to finish a leg and be able to eat and hydrate right away, as well as having food for the crew with little or no wait. As far as the awards party, my only experience there is to drop off my teammates and then after the fireworks go pick up the drunken fools, but they certainly seem to enjoy it.

Chinolas, thanks for coming on here and asking for opinions, much appreciated!!
I recommend using LeadNav with your iphone or ipad and headphones or Bluetooth device, it does work great.
 

CHINOLAS

Well-Known Member
What happen to the penalties ???
when you don't follow the riders notes the road book or the gps with the course on it?? Who's fault is it if they don't want to navigate and only follow the line
which must be zoomed out because there are not on the marked course?? @ rm116 turn off main road, @ rm123 cross over main road to the left side @ rm131 turn onto main speed zone 35mph.

View attachment 202249
View attachment 202245View attachment 202246View attachment 202247
Like i said, a lot of penalties where assessed that day for that issue, i mean lots of penalties, please check for D2 penalties.

NORRA: National Off-Road Racing Association, Home of the Mexican 1000 Rally
 
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