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How would a TT hold up in Dakar?

ISRengine

Well-Known Member
FIA weight rules:
"This is the weight of the car without fuel at any time during the competition, with two spare wheels. The engine cooling fluid and lubrication oil as well as the brake fluid must be at their normal levels.

The other tanks for consumable liquids must be drained and the following elements must be removed from the car :
- occupants, their equipment and luggage;
- tools, portable jack and spare parts;
- survival equipment;
- provisions;
- etc.

If three spare wheels are carried on board a 4x2 that has front and rear complete wheels with different diameters, this vehicle may be weighed with its three spare wheels. The weight of the car may be completed by adding one or several ballasts provided that they are strong and unitary blocks, fixed by means of tools, capable of having seals affixed and of being placed on the floor of the cockpit, visible and sealed by the Scrutineers. "

They just dropped it for 2015 rules. Was 3200 lbs. It is virtually impossible to hit. Schlesser was always close. He really worked on weight on every aspect of his build we got ours down to 3800 lbs after last Dakar. Robby should be lower.
Since I am a Schlesser fan since Dakar was in africa, it's interesting info. He have a huge back ground in F1 and sport-proto, so we can understand he is a weight guru, Always on the rule limit and outside of it sometimes

I don't know if we will see is new truck in a race sometimes 4x4 diesel engine
 

Suhaib Kiani

Well-Known Member
I am not sure how a TT will be ale to do half the stuff it does if you restrict the engine down to around 350 BHP.
 

Gadzooks2

Well-Known Member
I really don't understand the fuel capacity rule? Someone mentioned you need a 500 mile range? The longest stage in last years rally was 370 miles which is ridiculous without filling up. If you got 10 mpg which is nearly impossible in the sand no matter what engine you run (diesel possible exception) you would need to carry a 50 gallon cell to go 500 miles which adds 300lbs to the car!. This is not unrealistic for a modern TT to carry but the range would not be close to enough. Someone please tell me what actual mileage the top shelf Dakar vehicles get and how much fuel they actually carry. If there are fuel stops on the stages every couple hundred miles or so that changes everything. Also, How the hell does a bike make those distances?
 

Chris Tobin

Well-Known Member
I really don't understand the fuel capacity rule? Someone mentioned you need a 500 mile range? The longest stage in last years rally was 370 miles which is ridiculous without filling up. If you got 10 mpg which is nearly impossible in the sand no matter what engine you run (diesel possible exception) you would need to carry a 50 gallon cell to go 500 miles which adds 300lbs to the car!. This is not unrealistic for a modern TT to carry but the range would not be close to enough. Someone please tell me what actual mileage the top shelf Dakar vehicles get and how much fuel they actually carry. If there are fuel stops on the stages every couple hundred miles or so that changes everything. Also, How the hell does a bike make those distances?
Each of the cars has to carry enough fuel to run the ENTIRE stage including liasons and special sections so they can and will carry up to 100 gallons of fuel for the longest stages. This is one of the big advantages the Turbo Diesel engine has in fuel mileage meaning it can carry less fuel (weight) to cover the same distance.

The bikes have fuel stops at set points but they also have to be able to make a minimum range but I am not sure what it is...
 

Tipracer

Well-Known Member
bikes get more gas stops and current TT's are using 70 gallon plus tanks...but full blown 8 stack engines are getting around 2.2-2.7 mpg, remember when the vw TT raced the 500? they could do the whole thing on 1 tank , but it was a turbo diesel..and iirc it had a 50 odd gallon tank, so back then 8-10 mpg were possible, the xraid team are getting insane numbers from their engine package, I heard well over 300 hp and close to 600ftlbs. from a 3.0 liter diesel, I'm sure they can turn those numbers up at will as well.
As for the gordini he's got a 150 gallon tank out back ... and I'm sure these getting better than 3-4 mpg
 

Short Bus

Well-Known Member
I think they are allowed to stop for fuel at gas stations along the way as needed. Sainz crashed last year after looking for a gas station.

“We finished the first stretch and saw that we didn't have enough gas to complete the second part," explained Sainz, 51, after taking a shower. "So we went looking for a gas station."
After searching for fuel on the route that connects the two timed sections of Stage 10, Sainz wasted even more time when he realized that "we didn't have any money to pay for it."
http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/01/16/inenglish/1389873277_944208.html
 

Chris Tobin

Well-Known Member
I think they are allowed to stop for fuel at gas stations along the way as needed. Sainz crashed last year after looking for a gas station.



http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/01/16/inenglish/1389873277_944208.html
Seems like that would be "Outside" assistance and should be subject to DQ. Like when Coma (I think it was him) hid a spare rear tire and changed it and got DQed... When RG got the fuel he needed to finish it was not from a station but was from moto "Racers" that were in the rally and therefore allowed by rule to give assistance.

If you were allowed to "pit" for fuel during a liasion then the teams would set up pits and run less fuel (less weight) during the special portions of the stages as many times the liasons are longer than the specials...
 

mrlentle

Well-Known Member
Seems like that would be "Outside" assistance and should be subject to DQ. Like when Coma (I think it was him) hid a spare rear tire and changed it and got DQed... When RG got the fuel he needed to finish it was not from a station but was from moto "Racers" that were in the rally and therefore allowed by rule to give assistance.

If you were allowed to "pit" for fuel during a liasion then the teams would set up pits and run less fuel (less weight) during the special portions of the stages as many times the liasons are longer than the specials...
I think you'll find they're allowed to stop for fuel - have seen clips of plenty of vehicles fueling along the way. You must have seen the clips of RG getting swarmed at the gas stations? I would expect their fuel regulations to be more about the ASO not having to provide fuel dumps for the cars than anything else. Also - who wants to take a chance or some rinky dinky gas station in the middle of no-where in their rather expensive race car?
 

Chris Tobin

Well-Known Member
I think you'll find they're allowed to stop for fuel - have seen clips of plenty of vehicles fueling along the way. You must have seen the clips of RG getting swarmed at the gas stations? I would expect their fuel regulations to be more about the ASO not having to provide fuel dumps for the cars than anything else. Also - who wants to take a chance or some rinky dinky gas station in the middle of no-where in their rather expensive race car?
I think those pics were from prior to the Rally starting... certainly someone knows the rule on this... Paging Dr. Skilton, paging Dr. Skilton!!!
 

MKR44

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty positive cars are allowed to stop for fuel during liasin's at specific autorized fuel stations. No speeding allowed regardless of local traffic ,If you miss your assigned stage start time, there is a time penalty
 

Gadzooks2

Well-Known Member
bikes get more gas stops and current TT's are using 70 gallon plus tanks...but full blown 8 stack engines are getting around 2.2-2.7 mpg, remember when the vw TT raced the 500? they could do the whole thing on 1 tank , but it was a turbo diesel..and iirc it had a 50 odd gallon tank, so back then 8-10 mpg were possible, the xraid team are getting insane numbers from their engine package, I heard well over 300 hp and close to 600ftlbs. from a 3.0 liter diesel, I'm sure they can turn those numbers up at will as well.
As for the gordini he's got a 150 gallon tank out back ... and I'm sure these getting better than 3-4 mpg
Well that explains why cars like VW's, Mini's and Mitsubishi's win these events. They are not really races so much as fuel mileage tests! I absolutely hate racing that limits the fuel you can use. Are we trying to find out who is the fastest or who has the most efficient grocery getter? I've even lost interest in Indycar racing over the years because (since the 70's) it's not the fastest car that wins, its the one that gets the best balance of economy and speed. That's one thing about American off road racing (and drag racing) that sets it apart. The fastest most reliable cars win..And why it seems to be so difficult for an American effort to win in Dakar. Without a full factory effort to develop the most fuel efficient race cars it's going to be tough. Anyway, GO ROBBY!
 

Gadzooks2

Well-Known Member
Oh, reading some other posts now maybe you can stop for fuel? Then why be required to strap 900lbs. of fuel to your race car??
 

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
You can stop for fuel and get outside assistance during the liaisons, but not the special stages. Here is a photo I took of RG at a typical fuel stop in Argentina in 2010.

ImageUploadedByrace-deZert1419371221.830139.jpg



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