I have a homework assignment for everyone on RDC.

ACME

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I don't believe anything including national media or manufacturer involvement will make the desert-off road race type community truly mainstream as it is too regional as an activity. If you want to look at all forms of "off road" from Jeeps to Overlanding to UTV, racing (all off road forms) to rock crawling, mudding & rally; IMO they are too different to fall under one single "Off Road Culture" banner that can gain a significant cohesive national profile.

There are a few ways to market the desert-off road segment if popularity, without any concern for sustainability is the goal. But if you really want to serve the community and create a long term plan for it's sustainability, thus allowing it to organically grow; I think the following should be considered:

1) Get all segments of the various "Off Road Users" to give a damn and act responsibly & respectfully toward each other, the land
and other segments of users
2) Get all forms of "Off Road Users" including racers, to actively participate in the issues that face the community
3) Responsibly overcome land use issues so the term "Multi Use" is actually true, in other words keep public lands open to the public
4) Stop special interest lobbying
5) Get the BLM & other agencies to stop commercializing & thus closing public lands (see #3)
6) Some form of licensing or controls to ensure user competence
7) Find a way for the community to self police and keep the those that DGAF out so that it doesn't spiral out of control (see #1)

Once those things are handled, IMO just let it grow responsibly instead of trying to force it to grow. Look what has happened to Glamis as well as with other communities-industries or sports who became flash lifestyles, that grew significantly without enough available resources or consideration. Bubbles do burst...

I'll go back to feeding my unicorn now
 
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JerryB

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Again acknowledging that this is not the 30,000 ft "whole of off road" perspective that Dave was originally prompting here but thinking about recent events over the weekend specific to our relatively niche community, I wonder if there is a future world in which race orgs are divided/organized by status/type of vehicle. Maybe pie in the sky a bit but I imagine a world in which there is a "premiere" league or series that caters to the top unlimited classes. Some kind of certification process to define and separate who is "pro", designed in a way to maximize in person and virtual visibility. Perhaps less focused on mass car counts and more focused on high quality racing amongst a smaller field of semi equally funded, equally capable teams. The 'cream of the crop" if you will.

And perhaps an entirely separate but equal series/org that is specifically for UTVs. Also could involve visibility like mass marketing, live streaming, etc. With classes for entry, medium, and pro level racers. And finally a third series that caters to entry and mid level racers, specific to what we currently consider the "limited" classes. Perhaps less fanfare and overhead but a focus on simplicity and turn out.

All three designed in a way to mutually support and gradually elevate all levels. Under the current landscape we have multiple orgs who are all trying to be all things to all people. This strikes me as a challenge for each of them, and a challenge for racers deciding where to go...often leading them to mix and match. This multi tiered structure could also potentially alleviate some of this madness regarding having unlimited vehicles that weigh 6000lbs and have 1000hp, trying to race at the same time in the same place as much smaller vehicles. In my unicorn and rainbow filled dreams, I imagine the desert racing community working together to provide this kind of mutually beneficial set up that still allows classes/racers to thrive in their own respective ways, instead of continuing to perpetuate this one size fits all model in which everyone seemingly sacrifices something these days.
I think this is already occurring, they just don't realize it yet and/or are fighting it, to the detriment of the racers
 

J Prich

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I think this is already occurring, they just don't realize it yet and/or are fighting it, to the detriment of the racers
Agreed. I understand that no one wants to give up their pie but I believe there is enough to go around for everyone if it's sliced and distributed properly. Instead of building business models based almost entirely on total entries, if the sport were segmented in to three or maybe four comparable parts, I believe there is a business model in which all could thrive, even with less total entries.
 

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KOH compares (almost) to the good olé Riverside days. Thousands of spectators, hundreds of racers, great spectator viewing. What made Riverside a success? Mickey wanted to bring the desert racing of Baja to the front of the public and Riverside was born. He also started stadium racing and that was big too. Track layout is key. At Riverside you could be right next to the action in just a few hundred feet of your camp, mile long course that loops back in front of the crowd. Think if we could put a 5-mile desert course inside Daytona or Talledega or California speedway; 40' wide, mile long sand whoops, and no dust!

We did all land rush starts at Glen Helen 2 years ago. Was epic but not sustainable from a racer viewpoint. The 3rd Annual GG Lighting Freedom Cup is coming up, July 1-3. The closest thing to the old Riverside days you can get.....

 

JDDurfey

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Agreed. I understand that no one wants to give up their pie but I believe there is enough to go around for everyone if it's sliced and distributed properly. Instead of building business models based almost entirely on total entries, if the sport were segmented in to three or maybe four comparable parts, I believe there is a business model in which all could thrive, even with less total entries.
One of the first things that I believe would help would be to standardize the following:

Class names and specs
Numbering system
Safety requirements
Rules in general, and enforce those rules
Tracking devices would be nice too

A Trophy Truck should be called a Trophy Truck no matter where you race not Trick Truck or T1 (no offense Dave) A Class 1 should be Class 1, not 1500, or B1. If TT Spec or 6100 or T2, which should be called the same thing, is limited HP, every org should limit it to the same HP, which they may be doing now, but there were a number of years where they didn't. (Wow that was a long sentence!)

And while we are at it, maybe combine a few classes and eliminate some all together. I know this is a massive box of worms I am opening with this statement. But I think this would help bring the sport to the masses easier. Because now, it is so confusing. I love the idea of Jeepspeed. But does Jeepspeed need to have 50 different classes under their umbrella ( I am exaggerating I know...they only have 48 classes.) I have an XJ and if I could afford to race, that would probably be the route I would take.

I know that combining organizations would be IMPOSSIBLE! But if a few steps could be taken to standardize the desert racing community would be great I believe.

I also know this is a small portion of the scope that Dave tasked us with.
 

kyle_pc_75

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You will never get existing promoters on the same page, 2 of the series are literally trying to do anything to run the other out of the sport, BITD/Legacy
SCORE is doing its own thing, right or wrong, seems to be pulling racers
SNORE and MORE pull a great number of limited cars, nothing particularly modern about them but it works, same old courses, still get the car counts, but the UTV crowd isnt a big factor with both series, SNORE seems to have lots of internal drama
Mad Media, Trying to expand, doing one or two races a year with decent car counts, but doing a series will be telling, again goes back to BITD/Legacy competition against each other. I know there is not much love lost between MM, Donald and the Folks.
Dave Cole does his own thing, it works, but its one event a year and its still not pulling the unlimited cars/trucks I expected, the petty we dont race loop races crowd still holds on this one, I think its a weak excuse for racers. Its one of the roughest courses, great media etc.

The primary reason BOR is around is so that Utah locals have somewhere close and cheap to race every year. Trucks, buggies, SXS's whatever. There is no delusion about pulling racers from other series.

However, the bigger picture goal is to keep the precedent of racing those courses alive with the BLM, State, Counties, and other landowners. Allen looks at race course like water rights in the West...use it or lose it. He certainly doesn't make money doing it. He just loves desert racing and he lives in Utah.
 
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Klaus

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One of the first things that I believe would help would be to standardize the following:

Class names and specs
Numbering system
Safety requirements
Rules in general, and enforce those rules
Tracking devices would be nice too

A Trophy Truck should be called a Trophy Truck no matter where you race not Trick Truck or T1 (no offense Dave) A Class 1 should be Class 1, not 1500, or B1. If TT Spec or 6100 or T2, which should be called the same thing, is limited HP, every org should limit it to the same HP, which they may be doing now, but there were a number of years where they didn't. (Wow that was a long sentence!)

And while we are at it, maybe combine a few classes and eliminate some all together. I know this is a massive box of worms I am opening with this statement. But I think this would help bring the sport to the masses easier. Because now, it is so confusing. I love the idea of Jeepspeed. But does Jeepspeed need to have 50 different classes under their umbrella ( I am exaggerating I know...they only have 48 classes.) I have an XJ and if I could afford to race, that would probably be the route I would take.

I know that combining organizations would be IMPOSSIBLE! But if a few steps could be taken to standardize the desert racing community would be great I believe.

I also know this is a small portion of the scope that Dave tasked us with.
I agree.

Have one organization create a universal ruleset on how to race (classes, safety etc). Lets call it X in this post.

Allow race promotors to conduct races in adherence to X. Also allow organizations to do their own thing as well. Those then wont get the label X for their events.

The X organization gets financed by every racer entering a X aligned event. Say $10.

Now X has a budget to facilitate themselves. Their charter is to write a rule book and update it throughout time. Communicate to their markets what is happening. Listen to racers that race X events. Their mission is limited to only that so we don't feed a monster… and $10 becomes $11+

The more races a racer has raced in the past 1 year the higher his voting weight to propose rule changed. Stake holder influence.

In a way for a while everyone adopted the Score rulebook written by Bill Salvage. Not sure about the details… but it forked and promoters use some aspects of it or not today. Overall things are fractured.

It is confusing for a vehicle builder what the rules are. For spectators its confusing what the classes are. Etc.

FIA works that way… however it is a monster and punishes anyone playing outside of their rules.

—-
As for combining organizations… I feel we shouldn’t. There is resilience in many independent communities. However they should unite in their value system.
 

Argentino

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I agree.

Have one organization create a universal ruleset on how to race (classes, safety etc). Lets call it X in this post.

Allow race promotors to conduct races in adherence to X. Also allow organizations to do their own thing as well. Those then wont get the label X for their events.

The X organization gets financed by every racer entering a X aligned event. Say $10.

Now X has a budget to facilitate themselves. Their charter is to write a rule book and update it throughout time. Communicate to their markets what is happening. Listen to racers that race X events. Their mission is limited to only that so we don't feed a monster… and $10 becomes $11+

The more races a racer has raced in the past 1 year the higher his voting weight to propose rule changed. Stake holder influence.

In a way for a while everyone adopted the Score rulebook written by Bill Salvage. Not sure about the details… but it forked and promoters use some aspects of it or not today. Overall things are fractured.

It is confusing for a vehicle builder what the rules are. For spectators its confusing what the classes are. Etc.

FIA works that way… however it is a monster and punishes anyone playing outside of their rules.

—-
As for combining organizations… I feel we shouldn’t. There is resilience in many independent communities. However they should unite in their value system.
Thank you. I haven't been willing to press the post button in trying to suggest the same. The promoters should be second to an organization of the racers. That racer association sets the standards across the board.
 

fastfelix

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I agree.

Have one organization create a universal ruleset on how to race (classes, safety etc). Lets call it X in this post.

Allow race promotors to conduct races in adherence to X. Also allow organizations to do their own thing as well. Those then wont get the label X for their events.

The X organization gets financed by every racer entering a X aligned event. Say $10.

Now X has a budget to facilitate themselves. Their charter is to write a rule book and update it throughout time. Communicate to their markets what is happening. Listen to racers that race X events. Their mission is limited to only that so we don't feed a monster… and $10 becomes $11+

The more races a racer has raced in the past 1 year the higher his voting weight to propose rule changed. Stake holder influence.

In a way for a while everyone adopted the Score rulebook written by Bill Salvage. Not sure about the details… but it forked and promoters use some aspects of it or not today. Overall things are fractured.

It is confusing for a vehicle builder what the rules are. For spectators its confusing what the classes are. Etc.

FIA works that way… however it is a monster and punishes anyone playing outside of their rules.

—-
As for combining organizations… I feel we shouldn’t. There is resilience in many independent communities. However they should unite in their value system.
I like the idea of x. The more you race the more your vote counts. Is part of problem sometimes. Some old timer gets to dictate all the rules and doesn’t even race
 

JerryB

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I've said it before and I think it's worth repeating, racers are consumers, we consume a product, that being the organized event, closed course, timing and scoring, medical services, payout, etc, etc, etc. As a consumer, you have the choice to spend your money wherever you want. I never understood the draw to the idea of "if I race bitd or score, my ability to attract sponsorship will increase due to my getting exposure on TV ". We all know from either participating, in or as fans, watching the program, very few teams get actual "exposure" on the telecast. And when it does happen it's brief. Not followed around for lap after lap talking about the teams struggle, the drivers recent (fill in the blank here, such as nasturd, indycar, etc). You're getting nothing from the telecast! What if anything you're getting is coming from your own work promoting yourself on social media if you're into that. You're getting nothing from the televised broadcast of the race. I challenge anyone on here, and I hope I'm wrong, to show me the ROI from the few seconds of TV coverage you may have gotten at a recent race.

The promoters are the only ones making any money off the tv rights. And I don't mean this to be a bad thing, that's their business model, but let's all recognize the racers place in the model. And that model, for open desrt racing, is not going to change.

RG may have recognized this (i don't know I don't talk to him, only my guess) but SST has overcome this, through their marketing, formatting, race integration with other actual mainstream events, and finding a crossover point to draw in fans....off road and street racing fans. You've got to give it to him it was genius, mteg and indy car combined with off road.

You are a consumer, and if you dont like what they're selling you, go somewhere else, there's plenty of options today.
 

Bro_Gill

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Here's some insight for many-

"Historical building and prehistoric Indian Dwellings are being leveled by wanton action of some treasure hunters- including the digging of graves.
The indiscriminate killing of wildlife is upsetting the balance of Nature and starting a chain reaction which could endanger all of the more than 200 species. Already some, such as the Big Horn Sheep, are in danger of complete extermination.
The fragile topsoil of the desert and vegetation and small delicate wildflowers are being disrupted and killed by reckless drivers of motorcycles, dune buggies, and four wheel drive vehicles. The destruction of watersheds by these people is resulting in flood damage to the land."

This is taken from an editorial written by Jack Pepper, editor of Desert magazine in November of 1971. The title of the article is 'Can California's Deserts Survive?'. This is the same year that the BLM was tasked with beginning a multi-use plan for the California deserts. It included an area southwest of Barstow- 12,000 acres to be set aside for motorized recreation (racing) for motorcycles, dune buggies, and 4 wheel drive vehicles and was suppose to be included with other areas for motorized use for non-competitive purposes like camping, rock-hounding and caravan meets. Literally 50 years ago the protections for our sport were being addressed and yet, here we are today, still fighting for our 'piece' of the public lands use pie. 50 years later, they are still saying we will destroy the lands we have been recreating on, racing on for the last 50 years. And we have less now then we had back then. The threatened species in the desert is off roading public members.
 
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MTPyle

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I believe they trademarked the term for commercial use

Good on them for getting the Trade Mark. They made the term what it is. No different than Ultra4.

I do wish they would license it to other orgs to stop the madness. TT and TTspec should be the term we all use. This is a perfect example of orgs not willing with work with Each other for the general hood of the sport.

Having all orgs use the term is not going to hurt Score. It would help them and may give them some side cash from the licensing.

But how much would a org spend to use the term? My guess is not much.

@Dave Cole 4454 if you could license the Trophy Truck term, would you and if so how much would you pay? $5k a year? Less? Is it worth more?

Mike
 
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y2kbaja

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I agree.

Have one organization create a universal ruleset on how to race (classes, safety etc). Lets call it X in this post.

Allow race promotors to conduct races in adherence to X. Also allow organizations to do their own thing as well. Those then wont get the label X for their events.

The X organization gets financed by every racer entering a X aligned event. Say $10.

Now X has a budget to facilitate themselves. Their charter is to write a rule book and update it throughout time. Communicate to their markets what is happening. Listen to racers that race X events. Their mission is limited to only that so we don't feed a monster… and $10 becomes $11+

The more races a racer has raced in the past 1 year the higher his voting weight to propose rule changed. Stake holder influence.

In a way for a while everyone adopted the Score rulebook written by Bill Salvage. Not sure about the details… but it forked and promoters use some aspects of it or not today. Overall things are fractured.

It is confusing for a vehicle builder what the rules are. For spectators its confusing what the classes are. Etc.

FIA works that way… however it is a monster and punishes anyone playing outside of their rules.

—-
As for combining organizations… I feel we shouldn’t. There is resilience in many independent communities. However they should unite in their value system.
@Dave Cole 4454 is this something USAC does/could do? Bringing in a nationally known 'club' to unite a rulebook could be the X.
 

Tube ride

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So score is sitting on “ trophy truck “. Hoping bitd or KOH or legacy buy the rights for say 5 k a year ? This is a great example of how fractured and selfish this sport is . Maybeim not seeing the big picture and TT is Scores cash cow but seem very petty and a obvious starting point to “ work together “
 
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Klaus

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This thread is full of amazing ideas.

If a group wants to open-source put together a rulebook+ and wants to keep it transparent. RDC would be honored to provide a platform for the uncensored communication part of it. We could setup a separate sub-forum. Moderators can be peers of the community. Racers.

In my opinion all ideas must be put forward and shared with all. Then the ones with skin in the game vote on it.

Last night I thought more about all of this....eventually there will be resistance in project X (is that what it's called now? lol)... would be a shame if lots of efforts gets put forward and race promoters simply won't adopt to it. Or racers. Is this even something that is needed or desired?
 
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