looking for class1/class 10 vehicle specs for custom build

bonehead1

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rickf

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Crumple Zones in an off road car= chassis failure. Unless you plan on building a new chassis after each race, don't crash or get hit, or just want to get injured or die. A road car and an off road car are two different animals.

$10K to build a 10 car? jajaja Maybe with Iron pipe and Rancho shocks. You won't be able to race it in any sanctioning body. Shocks alone will cost you $6K+ that's if you get a deal.

Alot of the stuff you are talking about puts you into Class 1. A whole new animal if you want to be slightly competitive, then add 10X to your budget.

Not trying to negative. But you need to look into what you are trying to get into before you get hurt trying.

Listen to me, listen to Trey (who has a 10 car) and listen to the rest of the folks who are chiming in. These cars have evolved to what they are because that's what they NEED to be not because everyone's filthy rich and wants to waste money.
Come down and help pit for the 1000, go to tech before the race, I think you'll get your eyes opened. You can even pit with us.
 

Robin Hood

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well safty stuff like fire suit, exstinguishers, helmets. I have most of that crap already for myself. From what I was reading on CTR rule link. Most of the safty equiptment is cheap and easily available. Only thing I don't have at the moment is spare buckets. 5 point harnesses etc I have kicking around or know people that have extra's.


the fuel cell is cheap. but the riging for no back flow and roll over stuff I would have to make or find though. I don't have any of that sitting around.

as for engine and chassis since It has to be US engines... and can't use any of my turbo JDM nissan engines i have laying around.

basically my choices are down to Honda D16Y7. sohc non vtec 16v. easy to find... large aftermarket. easy to up compression and build a bullet proof 10,000rpm engine for like 2-3G. and could prolly rig FWD trans to run high travel rear suspension, with custom equal length/strength CV shafts

OR

go with something like a toyota 4AGE which is already RWD. and has huge JDM aftermarket since they where USDM and JDM engines.

choosing a transmission and making it fit will be the interesting part. as it seems most class 10 run rear engine RWD. I didn't see any rule saying I could use mid engine RWD. could then use an MR2 driveline.. modded of course. and 90% of trannys I could choose from that are RWD or MR or convertable from fwd to RRWD, would handle 200hp all day.

I'm wishing right now Nissan had made a strong 1.8L or smaller MR or RWD car with a huge aftermarket to select from... but can't win all your battles haha

if i can make a mid engine forward facing driveline I could use a stock S13 (240sx R200) diff nissan used in pretty much everything. They'll take an immense beating. there small, light, very tough, and have huge aftermarket for clutch LSD, and VLSD setups. the tomei 2way in my car is loud, but never given up on me yet haha. CV axels would then be exremely easy to make fit, and make them handle A LOT more than 200hp.

transverse engine like honda would be easy as there large aftermarket allows for pretty much everything to be upgraded easyily and cheapily. LSD's and custom gear boxes are dime a dozen. just making it fit right would be interesting

I've been pondering brakes and spindles etc.

basically I'm still thinking

A. cheap
b. common everywhere
c. tough
d. aftermarket upgrades that bolt on.

so im thinking probably chevy truck front spindles. from 04-06 half ton 2wd and with 4.3L. they came factory with steering rack set up instead of BS system that always fails chevy normally uses. If i could then find pillow ball upper and lower ball joints. I could then just make control arms that fit the factory ball joint mounting. then its easy to fix/replace. and the brake size would not be a problem as it stops a 4,000lb truck etc, would be more than enough for 2500lb car. I could work out all the math but i dont feel like it right now haha. one nice thing about the chevy spindle is its factory designed for SLA suspension. so other than making sure balljoints are loaded right it should be fairly straight forward idea or changeable design for just about everything ive seen on these "buggies". I just really dont like king pin style spindles. i'm not sure about race grade ones. but old trucks with them suck to fix/ replace.

as for rear spindle driveline etc. I'm think factory RWD. I have a bunch of 240sx spindles kicking around. there a 4 link though... and I'm not sure how I could make shock mounts work on them with larg suspension travel angle changes. and there advantage would be hubs are already built for CV axels. I would like to steer away from solid rear axels. There tough yes. but all it takes is one wrong landing to bend something or break soemthing and be out of the race. atleats with independant you can carry a spare easily. I' also pondering something like a DSM(talon) awd rear suspension. With large lower control arms, and relatively simple 3 link setup.

shocks I've kind of been looking around. obviously unless I make it match something thats already production then it will need to be custom.

summit racing, or my parts guy in florida carry a lot of the stuff that's maditory. for safty, gauges, seating. and there prices are usually very reasonable.

the mild steel or 4130 chromemoly tube would be a bit tough to find around here though. Mild us fairly easy. but 4130 I would have to order from somewhere I'm sure. not to mention the attachment my welder will need. and someplace to heat treat chromemoly. Im a mild steel guy myself. absorbes impacts better instead of your body absorbing it.... kind of like a new age car and "crumple zones" HAHA

There is no such thing as bullet proof 10,000 rpm engine in the desert and a transmission to handle the conditions and 10,000 rpm will either blow itself or your buget, you pick! Good Luck!
 

PT9Baja

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Jwolf, However your entry into offroad goes I hope you never lose your can do additude and energy. You are being given good advise and have been treated with respect by some people who have been and done. I started out a few years ago thinking I would be in a 12 car and racing in a while , but took the advice to go to some races , help some teams , see whats going on and learn about it , while building a Baja Bug . I have been to several Baja races and a couple in the US and am now a big fan of the offroad racing with a really fun wanna be class 5 bug to play with , and the realization that racing would take more money than I can afford. I have fun with it as a fan , and getting down to Baja with the bug and prerunnin some of the course and being part of the scene has been great. Its really fun to see a vid and say I've been there. Racing is not in my future , but good times in Baja are going to happen. Go check it out at the Score Baja 1000 in November in Ensenada
 

randy s

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starting from scratch, i don't think it's possible, even if you are extremely well connected, to build any kind of competitive legally sanctioned off road car or truck for ten grand. it just plain costs more than that. alot more than that. you're out of money after you buy just the tires, wheels, shocks and lighting required to be competitive. it would be tough to do on a 25k budget. i don't think there is a so-called rule of thumb, but if you have a certain build cost estimate and you've never done this before and you live in a local where you have to have everything specially ordered and delivered, then i think it's safe to say that your initial estimate will at least be triple of what your first cost estimate was. being macgyver [sp] helps alot but even he has to buy paper clips, straws, shoe strings, and candle wax.
 

jwolf

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starting from scratch, i don't think it's possible, even if you are extremely well connected, to build any kind of competitive legally sanctioned off road car or truck for ten grand. it just plain costs more than that. alot more than that. you're out of money after you buy just the tires, wheels, shocks and lighting required to be competitive. it would be tough to do on a 25k budget. i don't think there is a so-called rule of thumb, but if you have a certain build cost estimate and you've never done this before and you live in a local where you have to have everything specially ordered and delivered, then i think it's safe to say that your initial estimate will at least be triple of what your first cost estimate was. being macgyver [sp] helps alot but even he has to buy paper clips, straws, shoe strings, and candle wax.

true you may be right. I'm going to start going through and pricing stuff out piece by piece to see what I come out with. But i still figure I can cut around 15g for 90% of the car. I dont need to be sanction legal right off the get go, as I said we need to build it and drive it before we try anything major. Like I said too though, our stand point is cheap and redilly available. use common parts and your cost will be smaller. Makeing something work that works with something else. doing our best to stay away from one off stuff as much as possible helps to say "wow i can rebuild my complete front end for 120 bucks with premium parts"

we had a 6 inch lifted chevy duramax come into the shop the other day. the suspension lift kit gave me many ideas for suspension ideas. INCLUDING where to find pillowball ball joints easily. also gave me some design ideas for steering etc, as our plan is to used a chevy 5 or 6 bolt hub/spindle and brakes. also considering late model dakota, and s10/sonoma.

as for wheels,tires, and lighting. lights i can get from pricess auto for now. ive put them into rally cars before, they work well aslong as you weld the hinges into place so headlight cant droop or come loose. they'll actually take quiet a beating. rally car I put 4 into hit a huge snow bank last year and din't even crack the lens or housing. I was very surprised. as for wheels and tires. I can get BF all terrain T/A and set of steel beedlocking wheels for about 1500 at my door. soo not really any worse than my drift car. (plus the wheels will help us meet weight requirment of 2500 dry.) the cheap wheels of course. my 3 piece are worth about 3500 for 4 haha.

as for building a bulletproof engine and transmission thats easy. Yes I've never raced in desert condtions before. but rally/autocross/snowcross/drift is not easy on a driveline. It's not what's inside that matters, its how you build it. take my 240 engine for example. guys have put 5 or 6g into it in NA form trying to break 200 rwhp. forged everything etc etc, best of the best parts. i have 1500 into mine and im at 196 rwhp which I got bitched out saying "its impossible" well dyno sheet says otherwise haha. I actually want to break 230hp. but I dont feel like putting real coin into it...

I'll give you ALL this though. Yes I've never done this before. So i'll give you all the befit of the doubt right now lol. But if this was about a car. I'd build it how I say and do more just to prove a point. BUT i've never done this. engine/driveline is my specialty. not one off building cars for such specialised racing. BUT that's why I have engineers for friends and CNC machines not far away haha. AND hopefully some helpful advice from you PPL haha
 

GunnSlinger

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wow.......it sure is cold up there isn't it ...








good luck, let us know how it goes, post your progress in the shop section. we'd LOVE to see it!
 

jwolf

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OH and I've been talking to a lot of stock car friends that race on the oval near town. Chromemoly vs mild frames. Tell e your guys opinions on this. Basically I'm convinced mild is better chassis to build and I'll explain why.

pros vs cons of chromemoly(properly stressed relieved of course)

pros:
-very stiff
-can be very durable
-can be easily found depending on location

cons:
-high stress loads/impacts have tendance to crack the metal
-can't just be "rewelded on side of the road"
-has tendancy to shear under extremely hard impacts causing jaged edges etc (things to impale yourself on)
-Vehicle can be built too stiff and not allow any structural twist causing increases in either frame breaks, or hard susension/ bushing wear or weird breaks
-in hard impact driver is more likly to suffer bodily harm as impact is absorbed by body like old muscle cars rather than chassis (to a point of course not like a new car aka crumple zones etc)

pros vs cons of mild

pros:
-very easy to find
-easy to weld
-easy to bend and build with
-allows some structural flex/twist (needed in all cars, very rigid = bad)
-when welded properly weld will not break and will bend with tubing etc(not a structural weak point)
-on roll over has tendance to absorb some impact
-can be cut out and replaced anywhere
-NHRA and NASCAR sanctioned (or were havnt read up in a long time)

Cons:
-If vehicle is not structured properly vehicle can "fold" in on itself.
-chassis can bend under very hard impacts
-if not welded properly can of course break apart or crack around welds
 

jwolf

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wow.......it sure is cold up there isn't it ...








good luck, let us know how it goes, post your progress in the shop section. we'd LOVE to see it!



no its still nice here. 32F at night. thats still really nice. winter will dip as low as about -60F on fairly regular basis. touched -72 celcius last year with wind chill haha. frost bite in under 20 seconds on open skin lmao. thats cold haha. -35 celcius is fairly average for winter though... so 0 celcius (32F) is still warm :D
 

D-rek

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Good luck man I don't want to burst your bubble. Bullet proofing motor and trans is a art form....The loads are like nothing else in racing. I am a mechanical engineer and even if I had a plasma cut table to go along with my mill, lathe, bender, welders and a full tool box of tools I couldn't build a car in my garage for less then 30k and that is doing pretty much everything myself.....The trans is a minimum of 10k trust me many people have tried every variation and combination to do this cheaper and they don't work. You could probably build a car that you could drive in the desert but it would probably last 5 miles...
 

D-rek

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When you build a 10 car with 20" of travel 200hp and can beat the Kregers, Jimcos, and the other proven cars I will be first in line with my 15k....
 

jwolf

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Good luck man I don't want to burst your bubble. Bullet proofing motor and trans is a art form....The loads are like nothing else in racing. I am a mechanical engineer and even if I had a plasma cut table to go along with my mill, lathe, bender, welders and a full tool box of tools I couldn't build a car in my garage for less then 30k and that is doing pretty much everything myself.....The trans is a minimum of 10k trust me many people have tried every variation and combination to do this cheaper and they don't work. You could probably build a car that you could drive in the desert but it would probably last 5 miles...

well you could be very right. ive built things that do more than what anyone else says they should. So it will be interesting to see how this all goes. I'm honestly exited. I have no problems spending 10g to learn something like this first hand. my engineering friend wants to help in hopes we can do something with it and make a resume from it etc.

You are right though. I have never purposly built a driveline to literally handle the vehicle taking mad amounts of air and huge impacts of suspension loads. I think I will end up with some very interesting... case and motor mount breaks. but I think I've got some tricks up my sleave for this. One down side is.... we don't have sand pits within 700kms. closest we have is a huge gravel pit about 20 kms away. which werehopeing we can "simulate" the same types of conditions
 
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I love your idea, but to be competitive, IMHO, you needed this idea 35-40 years ago. Best of luck! Today's Unlimiteds and 10's can go 60-100 mph over terrain that would put a standard pickup out of control at 10 mph. Drivelines and suspensions endure HOURS of constant abuse for hundreds of miles, not a few kilometer long stages.

It's unbelievable 'til you've experienced it. You probably ought to come out to a race. It will be money well spent. No offense, but have you seen "Dust To Glory"?
 

jwolf

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I love your idea, but to be competitive, IMHO, you needed this idea 35-40 years ago. Best of luck! Today's Unlimiteds and 10's can go 60-100 mph over terrain that would put a standard pickup out of control at 10 mph. Drivelines and suspensions endure HOURS of constant abuse for hundreds of miles, not a few kilometer long stages.

It's unbelievable 'til you've experienced it. You probably ought to come out to a race. It will be money well spent. No offense, but have you seen "Dust To Glory"?

Oh yes i can see by watching short videos these vehicles are serious machines. Capable of some serious racing. I know first hand factory vehicles are toys compared to anything race built. I may not know desert racing, and granted i've never done it before. BUT i have built cars, and many at that.

I found out lots and learned tons building my drift car. Things Id never anticipated needing to know or even thought of. But I do know first hand the extrme punishment cars take on a drift track, also first hand from wangan racing. building a car to maintain 180-300kmh speeds for hours on end is no easy feet to achieve. Takes time, money, and a whole lot of paying attention to finest details.

It is possible my suspension ideas may not stand up to such severe punishments. But the only one way to test it... and that's to build it. I'm garunteeing some of our ideas will fail. but with failure comes new ideas. just like all these big factory built class 10 cars. they started out somewhere building something for the first time and ended where they are. Now i look at there designs, watch videos, see flaws, common problems, etc to find a resonable solution to not allow my car to fail. same way i build all my cars. build it right or don't bother.... in this case theres a learning curve to be had... haha

and im finding that movie right now
 
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If you can take those winters, you certainly show the determination needed to build and field a car.
 

jwolf

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If you can take those winters, you certainly show the determination needed to build and field a car.

if you think winters are bad. you should see the pot holes around the city in spring. some are big enough to swallow small cars. let alone pound out stock vehicle suspension in a real hurry haha. now drive a balls out drift car with 3 inches of ground clearnace.... you don't know what rough pavement is until you live here.... haha
 
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