Lordstown Motors Electric Truck Racing San Felipe 250

Wicked Al

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This will almost be hilarious watching misinformation believers dive into a new technology...... Can one of you on RDC explain how a 3 phase DC induction motor works??? I built one of the first training rigs years ago, but I understand things you cannot see or touch.....View attachment 225026
I have to admit, I am not an engineer or technician in EV, just the basics to get me in trouble. Motor, gear reduction, controller...looks like a Curtis, don't know what type of speed controller, pot or hall effect. The things I look for is efficiency, as that tells me how much energy is lost to heat or used in movement, so AC is the winner there. Then I look for power density and, generally speaking, axial flux takes the lead there. I also look for rated and peak kW and water cooled tends to enable better continuous power ratings. Not too concerned about torque as there is usually plenty by the time it gets geared down. A VCU is important as I'll be running four motors for IWD and will look for torque vectoring to control it...not that I will program it to do so. I do have some unique concepts for control algorithms though so who knows where that may go. I'll most likely be running low voltage as I'm only doing 30kW per wheel and my amperage is still doable at that point, but if I go higher I'll most likely go 300v or better to keep the amperage down and efficiency up. BMS on all batteries of course, still debating chemistry and type of battery along with module configuration and/or cooling. All depends. I'm clueless on can-bus but will dive in a bit more when I get to that if I don't have someone else figure it for me. At the end of the day it's volts, amps and resistance...and control thereof. Enough to get in trouble for sure :D
 

Bro_Gill

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Again Martin, if ANYONE can do it, how come literally NO ONE ever has. Its 20 MPH average but we get the sportsman cutoff.

We have a bit of a problem, Kyles original setup was 4 battery boxes at 190 lbs

The EV West Cells are 3 boxes in the 270 range.

Anyone have a service bed crane to sell?
And THAT IS the problem. Weight of the batteries. I penciled stuff out and yeah, Batteries in the 700-900 pound range with several changes needed. I ran it through for a 1000 run, not the 250, so you could probably get by with less, but averages as I mathed it out were in the +/- 90 mile range on a charge. So you gotta change batteries 3-4 times for the 250 run. The idea that you are going to charge and keep going is moot. And that is not a hizoot motor, that was using second gen Leaf looking at about 40hp through a 4 speed box, 2wd. And that means batteries kill it because of weight. I still look at other options, but with 2-3 hour battery pack life, recharges are needed and to me it looks like 4-5 battery packs with recharge on the move was what was needed while chasing down the peninsula. And as you are finding out, (I was hoping to keep batteries under 200 pounds or do 4 in the car in the 100 pound range hoping that would cover the distance, it won't) so that 2 guys could do swaps by hand. Crane became obvious. Motors are not the issue, it's all about batteries. But I don't need to tell you this, you already know.
 

green787

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I have to admit, I am not an engineer or technician in EV, just the basics to get me in trouble. Motor, gear reduction, controller...looks like a Curtis, don't know what type of speed controller, pot or hall effect. The things I look for is efficiency, as that tells me how much energy is lost to heat or used in movement, so AC is the winner there. Then I look for power density and, generally speaking, axial flux takes the lead there. I also look for rated and peak kW and water cooled tends to enable better continuous power ratings. Not too concerned about torque as there is usually plenty by the time it gets geared down. A VCU is important as I'll be running four motors for IWD and will look for torque vectoring to control it...not that I will program it to do so. I do have some unique concepts for control algorithms though so who knows where that may go. I'll most likely be running low voltage as I'm only doing 30kW per wheel and my amperage is still doable at that point, but if I go higher I'll most likely go 300v or better to keep the amperage down and efficiency up. BMS on all batteries of course, still debating chemistry and type of battery along with module configuration and/or cooling. All depends. I'm clueless on can-bus but will dive in a bit more when I get to that if I don't have someone else figure it for me. At the end of the day it's volts, amps and resistance...and control thereof. Enough to get in trouble for sure :D
You need to review your basic concepts first..... cart before the donkey syndrome .....

 

Wicked Al

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You need to review your basic concepts first..... cart before the donkey syndrome .....

That is a false assumption. I need to know the characteristics of the motor. I'm not engineering one or trying to build a new motor, I just need to know which motor to use. Weight, output, size, voltage etc. Just the basics. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the more technical aspects but I can get lost in details and start working on improving it. I don't need to do that. I need to pick one and go with it. It doesn't even need to be optimal, just "not bad". The biggest thing I need to worry about is heat and energy, reduce one, ensure enough of the other. Balance those and I will be good to go.

Edit: This is like saying you need to know the Carnot cycle before you can build a racecar with an ICE. Good to know, not needed.
 

Wicked Al

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And THAT IS the problem. Weight of the batteries. I penciled stuff out and yeah, Batteries in the 700-900 pound range with several changes needed. I ran it through for a 1000 run, not the 250, so you could probably get by with less, but averages as I mathed it out were in the +/- 90 mile range on a charge. So you gotta change batteries 3-4 times for the 250 run. The idea that you are going to charge and keep going is moot. And that is not a hizoot motor, that was using second gen Leaf looking at about 40hp through a 4 speed box, 2wd. And that means batteries kill it because of weight. I still look at other options, but with 2-3 hour battery pack life, recharges are needed and to me it looks like 4-5 battery packs with recharge on the move was what was needed while chasing down the peninsula. And as you are finding out, (I was hoping to keep batteries under 200 pounds or do 4 in the car in the 100 pound range hoping that would cover the distance, it won't) so that 2 guys could do swaps by hand. Crane became obvious. Motors are not the issue, it's all about batteries. But I don't need to tell you this, you already know.
If your pit stop is at the least 70 or the most 90 miles, you start with a full charge that takes you to miles left of 180, swap one, miles 110, swap 2, miles 40 final swap 3.
F250 or 350 can carry that much weight. Tubing built rack, UHMW to sit on, cam lock it down with guide pins. Tubing gantry with all batteries ready for swap on it. Car comes in, disconnect batteries on car, slide back onto rack placed behind car, swing fresh batteries over, drop them down. Lock them on and connect. Car takes off. Gantry picks up used batteries and loads them on truck, lock down gantry and head to next pit.

The more time you spend on the design of the gantry, battery rack, fastening and connection method, the faster you get in and out. Shouldn't take much time on the course if you spend the time in the shop.
 

green787

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That is a false assumption. I need to know the characteristics of the motor. I'm not engineering one or trying to build a new motor, I just need to know which motor to use. Weight, output, size, voltage etc. Just the basics. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the more technical aspects but I can get lost in details and start working on improving it. I don't need to do that. I need to pick one and go with it. It doesn't even need to be optimal, just "not bad". The biggest thing I need to worry about is heat and energy, reduce one, ensure enough of the other. Balance those and I will be good to go.

Edit: This is like saying you need to know the Carnot cycle before you can build a racecar with an ICE. Good to know, not needed.
Why independent wheel motors...??? Why not a proven trophy truck suspension...??? Just curious.....
 

Wicked Al

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Why independent wheel motors...??? Why not a proven trophy truck suspension...??? Just curious.....
I'm going to assume you mean a solid rear axle 2WD?

They don't do too well at KOH. I mentioned new control algorithms, need individual control of each wheel to do that. Auto locked 4wd, limited slip, torque steering, and other things I want to keep tucked away until I get a chance to dig into it, but should see much greater control in a wide variety of terrain. My focus is on vehicle dynamics, motor control affects that.
 

Wicked Al

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This will almost be hilarious watching misinformation believers dive into a new technology...... Can one of you on RDC explain how a 3 phase DC induction motor works??? I built one of the first training rigs years ago, but I understand things you cannot see or touch.....View attachment 225026
I just saw this the other day, what are your thoughts on this tech? Looks interesting but I don't know enough to be able to judge it.

 

jon coleman

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This will almost be hilarious watching misinformation believers dive into a new technology...... Can one of you on RDC explain how a 3 phase DC induction motor works??? I built one of the first training rigs years ago, but I understand things you cannot see or touch.....View attachment 225026
zipp ties, cheap solenoid, relays, flux capacitors, i Do see a kanuffler pin& left handed throttle spanks too...🙈
 

green787

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I'm going to assume you mean a solid rear axle 2WD?

They don't do too well at KOH. I mentioned new control algorithms, need individual control of each wheel to do that. Auto locked 4wd, limited slip, torque steering, and other things I want to keep tucked away until I get a chance to dig into it, but should see much greater control in a wide variety of terrain. My focus is on vehicle dynamics, motor control affects that.
Oh... a rock racer... yes I could see the advantage there.....
 

jon coleman

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as soon as the power/ battery thing is figured out, its game over for fossil fuel racing, just think how Really fast a tesla drive line is Without 1000 lbs of battery, im all in on the ev / koh thing( that way when they overall, i can say i told ya so...)
 

OFFRD-JNKIE

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Again Martin, if ANYONE can do it, how come literally NO ONE ever has. Its 20 MPH average but we get the sportsman cutoff.

We have a bit of a problem, Kyles original setup was 4 battery boxes at 190 lbs

The EV West Cells are 3 boxes in the 270 range.

Anyone have a service bed crane to sell?
Dave you might get in touch with "PAB" Cameron Steele there is a member on his race team that often takes his HD service truck to the races to assist at the pits and it does have a crane. It might be worth seeing if you can pit with them and use their truck to help change out batteries.
 
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