Lordstown Motors Electric Truck Racing San Felipe 250

michael.gonzalez

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Where 3 Million Electric Vehicle Batteries Will Go When They Retire​

GM, Toyota and BYD are part of a potential $550 billion industry.

Good article in
Bloomberg Businessweek.....
Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!



I agree it is often overlooked that these batteries could still be used outside of an automobile setting after they are "retired" from car-use, giving them a "second life" and possibly more. This is a great alternative to explore before resorting to recycling the raw materials.
 

DuaneH

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Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!



I agree it is often overlooked that these batteries could still be used outside of an automobile setting after they are "retired" from car-use, giving them a "second life" and possibly more. This is a great alternative to explore before resorting to recycling the raw materials.
Unfortunately based on previous history...what is ideal..... is seldom followed through on. The stockpiles of scrap "renewable energy" components will continue to grow until someone follows through.
 

Bricoop

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Dont insult my intelligence by telling me one is saving money and the environment with electric cars...especially Teslas...

I want to go fast? I'll buy a ZR1for less.

Still working the wife for a C8.
A ZR1 will get smoked by a Model S Plaid. Same price.
A Z06 gets smoked by a Model 3 performance. And the model 3 is much cheaper.
 

Wicked Al

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To give you EV newbies some context, and this is my opinion so take it for what it's worth, EV's are just starting.

I estimate EV tech is about where computer tech was in the eighties. We're just past 5.25" floppies and into the 3.5" floppies with a massive 1.44Mb of storage. At this point the 387 CPU's are all the rage with the 487's on the horizon. Fast forward to today, what is the status of computers? You carry more computing power in your pocket than you thought possible. Terabyte storage is cheap, they have friggen cameras on chips.

EV's are electronics, energy storage is a tech problem. The last ten years batteries have tripled in energy storage and the price has plummeted. The only reason battery charging or battery swaps are an issue is because we're dealing with 3.5" floppies and haven't made it to the USB's yet. I'll go so far to say that the whole push for charging stations is a temporary problem that time will obsolete. If you knew what the tech was two years ago, you're way behind. If you knew what it was a year ago, it's still in use, but older tech. Advancements are being made weekly in labs, and just the past week two battery companies have limited production in batteries that are twice as dense as what is in EV's right now. In the lab a new tech was introduced that dramatically increases the energy density of the motors, estimated by a factor of ten.

Now that the big companies are putting serious money behind it, you will see steady and quick advancements in the tech. Recharging a race car is a temp problem.

Just like internal combustion engines, the main issue with performance is heat. The more efficient the motor, controller and battery become, the more electrons you can push through the same components. There are few issues with electric drive, the biggest being energy storage and long distance racing is worst case use of the tech. You find solutions here, you move the tech forward.

With regards to lithium, another temporary issue. We will have high demand as batteries are inefficient and the demand for new EV's to replace ICE grows. As tech improves, you can get more energy stored for less lithium (and related materials). As the initial demand is satisfied, there is more lithium on the street that will get recycled. As energy density continues to improve, new mining will drop off as existing lithium recycled will be able to fill most of the need for growth of the industry and the initial demand surge due to changing technology is gone. Just as lifetime degrading of the batteries has improved dramatically over the last decade, it will continue to do so to the point where batteries will be a lifetime purchase and we'll have energy cubes to put in the RV, to power the cabin or provide power assist to your trailer while your sedan pulls it. It will become a commodity mush as your smart phone has. Cheap, small, plentiful. It's just tech and that is the route tech goes. Internal combustion engine (ICE) has no chance and in these early stages it is already being overpowered. The new Hummer, 11,400 ft/lbs of torque! Enjoy the engines now, they are yesterdays tech. And yes, I do enjoy the sound of a loping cam, I have swapped V8's into four cylinder cars, put motorcycle engines into quads and bored and stroked ATV motors. Different tech, different way to get more power, more options in drivetrain configuration, it will advance our sport.

I think the biggest challenge for Lordstown will be the ability of a hub motor to take the beating. If that survives, then charging and staying on time will be the next one. With Brenthel, the durability of the suspension should not be an issue, but the unsprung weight will compromise the performance and beat the occupants though the mass of the battery will help in that regards. There's no doubt they have several challenges ahead of them. I'm very interested to see how they perform...especially with hub motors as I am looking to go that route too. Not in my next EV build, down the road when we've been able to prove it out. :D

Absolutely fun times!
 

Total Loss

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In this example, one would already spend 30k annual on fuel.
2 years of that and your proposed solar cost of 50k would have been cheaper. (And don't worry, Tesla makes great battery packs)

Besides that, your proposed cost of 50k is a bit high considering 4kw of panels is $9016 ($2200 federal tax credit brings it to $6800) and a Powerwall is $9500 ($2200 federal tax credit brings it to $7300). 2 sets of panels for 8kw total and 2 Powerwalls would end up costing around 25k installed with the credits.

As far as an 80k car goes....
BRAND NEW Model 3 Long Range can be had for 45k FYI.



New battery for Model 3k costs ~7k and is up to the owner when they want to swap out.
Battery degrades ~10% over 160,000miles. So would hold 80% charge at 320,000 miles (Degraded 20%).
That 15,000 miles/year would take 20 years to reach 300,000 miles. SO double the proposed "10 years for new batterys"




Diesel Passat's were great cars.

So were Geo Metro's
and Toyota Tercel's
and Chevy Sprint's
and Honda Civics

Nowadays, cars have gotten bigger and safer, and more luxurious with more features and options. The closest thing to that now is a base model Honda Civic getting 30/38mpg for 21k which is arguably a good deal.
But will also need oil changes every 10k miles, engine maintenance, etc.
(30 oil changes over 300,000 miles! wow! 60 if you do it every 5k) How much is an oil change?
And you might need some spark plugs and air filters every now and then. And let's not hope you need to do the water pump or head gasket or radiator or spark plug wires or coils/distributor or fuel injectors or fuel pump or fuel filter or MAF sensor....
I did 25 years as an inspector for insurance companies...I had to keep up on every vehicle, every problem, every everything to make informed decisions.
I can tell you Tesla stories if we had an hr...
Enjoy wasting your money on it...especially when the massers in Kali mandate them for ya. Seems they have done a bang up job convincing you they are cost effective.
I spend probably 2500/yr on fuel...most of it in the 10mpg rv...havent paid for a car repair in many years...Inc oil changes.

Good luck using all your stats to convince me...good luck.

And thank me for still subsidizing them with my taxes...all the while they are the greatest thing since sliced bread...lol
 

Total Loss

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And how much does a charge cost on the road? Not to mention the 30 minutes or more you waste enjoying the truck stop diesel fumes...
 

Total Loss

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A ZR1 will get smoked by a Model S Plaid. Same price.
A Z06 gets smoked by a Model 3 performance. And the model 3 is much cheaper.
In the Cannonball? To the River?
Smoked is a relative term.
But I guess the Tesla hipster can put on the auto pilot and eat the rear bumper of a big rig.

BTW...Don Garlits would beat the 2 motor S also in his latest swamp rat.
 

Bro_Gill

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As Total Loss said-I have no problem with people building or driving electric cars, I just don't think I should have to A. Subsidize them, and B. Have black or brownouts due to extreme taxing of the power system because a bunch of rich elitists like looking woke in their Teslas cruising the Beach. Want electric cars? Build more nuke and hydro power plants.
 
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