M.O.R.E. Lies....

tkr

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I'd like to share my experience at this weekends M.O.R.E. Kartek 300. We have been racing in MDR's class 1300 with our current car for the past three years. During that time we have earned one first place, one second place, and numorous DNF's. A couple of weeks ago we decided to give the M.O.R.E. series a try...all we had heard were great things about the organization. I e-mailed JIm and told him I had been racing in MDR class 1300 and wanted to come out to his next race and asked about the available prize money. He said he would pay $100 per entry to first place. That got us pretty excited as $1100....$600 from MORE and $500 from M/T....is a heck of a lot more than we've ever won in a race. So we prepped the car really well, showed up, and won our class by a large margin...30 plus minutes. Without a word to us, Jim decided not to pay us the $600...$100 per entry...but $400 instead because we were too fast for our class.
For those of you who don't know, 1300 is a sportsman/prerunner buggy class. Just like 1450 is for trucks. In MDR, we race agaist mini mags, baja bugs, big 4 seater a-arm v8 cars, and run of the mill beam cars..just like ours. As Patricia says, the class is for cars who don't fit in another class. Well as a long travel beam car we could run class 10 or 12. We have a water cooled 135hp 2.0L 4 cyl., so we can't run 12. We're too heavy and underpowered for 10, plus our motor is too big. We don't have the hp or wheel travel for class 1, so where does that leave us? When I e-mailed Jim, he said NOTHING about any restrictions for the class. The guys at tech said nothing about it either. I respect Jim's right to do whatever he wants with his organization, but I DON'T respect him going back on his word. What made me even more upset is he didn't give that extra $200 to anyone else, he just kept it!! As far as I'm concerned, the man is a liar and a crook and we wouldn't go back there if he offered $10,000 to the winner!!

BTW - the second place car looked to be a well built and completely legal 1600 car. The top 4 or 5 1600 cars in this race smoked us!! How is it our fault the guy was a slow driver??
 

highonthai

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Matt,
it is my opinion that Jim at MORE is one of the most giving promoters in this sport.At this time I see that there has been over 100 views of your post and no replies? I think it was wrong of you, in such a short time after the race to bash and accuse someone personally in a public forum. Have you contacted Jim or any of the other racers at all about your feeling or to try to discuss this with him before this public display of slander? Maybe he felt that you were sand bagging.

With this type of attitude, I'm sure you will not receive any support or sympathy from any of the other racers.(I would be surprised)

From your post you seem to have a fast sportsman car why don't you spend a few dollars and upgrade it to fit into a class? spend the extra $160.00 in entry fee and then [I have been warned] and moan as much as you want....
By the way how much $ have you won at the other promoters races in the sportsman class

Not very SPORTSMAN like of you.
Just my opinion
Scott
 

SILAHUA

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well Matt & Scott
not to bash on any one nor to take anyones side. but i do see why Matt would be upset. if someone says they will pay an amount then they should. but on the other side of the coin lets also be fair to the other competitors on that same class if you are running a vehicle that is very close to run in pro class lets not try to cheat adn run a faster car on a class that shows that it has an disadvange on competing against your vehicle. Matt where there any other cars similar to yours on that class that you ran?
 

tkr

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Scott,
That seems to be the popular opinion of Jim. That's why we went to the race. After we got our check at the awards ceremony, we went and talked to him about it. He told us that the second place guy was unhappy but was too embarassed to protest. So he goes back on his word and takes money away from us? He also said that he had called a meeting for the class 1300 guys at the driver's meeting about this issue.....#1 - we were at the driver's meeting from the beginning to end and never heard anything about this, #2 - we were racing against a bunch of people we've never met. How could anyone know there would even be an issue?
Sandbagging?? Jim saw our entry form in which we told him what car we were running. He didn't inform us of any rules or restrictions for the class. The tech guys who inspected the car said NOTHING of any rules or restrictions. He told us of NO stipulations for the prize money. We talked to Jim at tech while standing right in front of our car!! WE HID NOTHING!
Its only slander if it isn't true. So let's restate the facts.
-Our car IS a class 1300 car and has been for over three years in the series that created the class.
-Jim offered $100 per entry to the 1300 class winner.
-Jim knew what we were entering, he saw it himsel and he never told us about any engine size or wheel travel restrictions.
-After the race, he had us next to the finish line for almost an hour. He waited for second place to finish, came over, looked at both of our cars, took the second place driver aside and had a talk with him, and never said a word to us about him or the driver being unhappy or taking any money out of our winnings
-The first we knew of the reduction in prize money was at the awards ceremony. After the end of it, we walked up and camly asked why the amount was different. We were told that the second place driver was unhappy that his competition was "driving a cadillac when he was driving a vw". (Our car is a home built beam car with a 4 cylinder engine, hardly a "cadillac").
- He didn't say 1 word to us about the situation. He waited for us to come to him to get is b.s. explaination.
- Unless he gave it to the third place guy, he kept the $200 he took from us.
Those are the facts. Did he lie when he told us he would pay $100 per entry to first place in class 1300? Yes. Was he chickenshit for not informing us of his change in plans? Yes. If he had restrictions for engine size or wheel travel in the class, was he irresponsible for not informing us and monitoring who was entering? Yes. Would Sal, Casey, or Patricia ever even consider doing anything like this?? I HIGHLY doubt it.

I didn't post this for simpathy. I posted it as a warning to other people who may be thinking about racing in his organization. I want them to know the man who runs it is a liar, irresponsible, and chickenshit.
 

tkr

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Jesus,
The other cars in the class seemed to me to be pretty similar. All "outdated" beam cars just like ours. I didn't get a close enough look to see the details, arm length, engine size, etc. I can say that most were not running stock arms on the front or the back. My guess is there were 1835's or bigger. The only sure exception was the 1600 car who came in second, but if he was on the gas he should have beat us or been closer.
 

Jordan

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I agree that you should pursue conversations with MORE about this. However, I think that if a person is allowed to compete in a specific class they should be awarded the $$$ if they win. If they are allowed to enter and compete in the contest approved by the sanctioning body they should be awarded the same as anyone else. If MORE of MDR or SCORE feels a vehicle is not fit for a certain class then BEFORE the race they should be asked to change classes. This is why we have different classes. The prerunner type classes allow the most differences in vehicles but all of the competitors understand this going into the races. Pulling his cash prize is unfair in my opinion.
 

fishd00d

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If its a sportsman class and has no preset rules then it should be run that way. Dosent matter if someone goes out there and smokes the class, there is no rule that says they cant!

For example at the MDR Barstow race earlier this year PCI Scott brought out his prerunner and raced 1450, did any of us care?? NOPE Was he in violation of any of the rules of the class? NOPE Did he smoke the class by an hour??? Yep. Did anyone protest?? NOPE

If you are racing a class with no rules or very little then dont cry when someone comes out and smokes you.

If the promoted said he would pay a certain amount then thats what he needs to pay. Cant change his mind after the race is over!!! That is BS and hence another reason I will never race MORE.
 

MikeLeung

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There are always two sides to an issue....I like to here MORE's take on this. But the way Matt desribe's it, he is completely right. Sportsmen classes exist for a reason...its for cars that dont fit other classes. What grounds does the second place driver have?? What can he protest...that his car was beaten by a legal sportsmen car?? Sounds like he should be racing in a Pro 1/2-1600 anyways.

If MORE did state that additional money was to be paid...then it should be paid. If not...he can promise all the things in the world to get racers to race his series...but have excuses at the end of the race not to pay.

Enough of that...leaving for Baja tomorrow...so long suckers!!!
 

SILAHUA

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Thanks Matt for your reply. i do believe in all fairness you shuld get the full amount that it was offered. and if other people where afraid to protest that is their problem. just like fish said they should have told you that your car didnt belong in that class before the race during tech not after the race. that is unsporteman like and it shows the lack of profecinonalism in an organization. here the mystake wasn't made by the driver i dont believe your were trying to cheat anyone either Matt. but if they ok you to run that class they made the mystake. but also in fairness for the sport even thou is a sportsman class restrictions should apply to keep the field competivie and as even as it can. maybe that class should have any prize money. j/k
laugh.gif
now i dont know nor havent race a MORE race but lets keep this sport fair and fun. if another competitor doesnt want to protest is his/her decicion not the organisation. they should just dysqualify you for that class before the race, or just race on a more even field. thats just my opinion
 

SILAHUA

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Hey Mike try to leave some beer and señoritas for the guys to get there on friday.

but hopefully this would be resolve in a profesional manner and we all can get back to enjoy the dezert however you wanna take it.
cool.gif
 

tkr

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I need to clear something up. I have no way of knowing what was said between the second place driver and Jim. That doesn't change anything, I just don't want to be bad mouthing someone when I don't know the facts.
 

SILAHUA

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jajajajajaja
i know what you mean WTF?????
i gues MORE does have a purse. thats why i said earlier no money for that class in CODE we get the opportunity to race against our fellow pro racers and if we are lucky enought to finish on top you get a nice plaque. so thats why i'm moving up to pro instead I invested more money on my car to fit it into a pro class to be fair to the sportman class running a class 5 unlimited would be fair to most race cars in class sportsman.
 

FullsizeFun

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[ QUOTE ]
Why is a SPORTSMAN class receiving ANY purse money? I thought SPORTSMAN meant racing for a trophy only. So WTF???


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, sportsman class should not have any purse or points.(side bets between racers is cool). It should only be an opporitunity to get out on the course and get some experience in a mildly built car. By sportsman rules somebody can run a class 1 car if they wanted to, but that is not very sportsman like. If you know you have a car that is going to dominate that class, I think maybe you should step it up and get into a pro class. I think running sportsman for more than a few years is chicken$hit. It is there to learn the sport, not to make a career out of sandbagging.
 

Fourstroker

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Matt,

Sorry to hear about your bummer with MORE. For the rest of you that think TKR is a sandbagger, think again. Does he have clean running older beam car that really doesn't fit into a category? YES!! Are they great guys to race against that will ask you how your car is running even when you are racing against them? YES!! Does he go out and smoke the competition every race? NO!! He simply has a solid, clean running car that turns consistent laps. Did I mention Great Guys yet. I chase/occasionally race with Greg Crew #1302 in MDR and these are always giving us fits but are never running away from the field. In the 2 years that I have followed MDR I have seen faster 1300 cars but not many more consistent. Sorry to hear that you guys had a bad experience with MORE. We also had heard many good things about there organization. Hope this gets resolved so that you guys get your $$$ and MORE saves face. Promoters that pay bonuses(on most occasions) are hard to come by.
 

tkr

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Just about every car in the MDR class 1300 has been in that class for 3+ years. And like I said, out of all those races we have 1 first place and 1 2nd place. All the others were either way back in the pack or DNF's. We have no way of knowing we would "dominate the class". We didn't have any clue who we would be racing against. There is nothing special about our car. If you want the specs, go to our website.
I didn't post on M.O.R.E.'s site because I'm not trying to get Jim's attention and I'm not trying to resolve this issue. It's not as though we're going to miss the $200, its the principle involved. We tried to talk about it with Jim and he basically told us to get lost. So now I'm trying to get the attention of the racing community. Had I heard a story like this when we were still considering racing a M.O.R.E. race, I would definitely have thought twice.
 

ntsqd

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So instead of giving it a week and then appealing the decision in private, you air it in public? Maybe he erred and maybe he didn't
By posting about it here so soon you've committed it to the current path. Now no one can save face and it's turned into a debacle. Sad.
 

DG_BTI

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nothing is "sad", he got screwed and he's letting the rest of us know about it, Why should he wait a week? If I feel I was screwed I wouldnt wait a week, what for? If he was wrong let them explain, that's what this is all about. From my point of view, he makes a great complaint, lets hear the other side on this open forum. If there is a non truth or fabrication, MORE can step it up and explain. As a reader of this forum I make my decisions based on fact, if MORE cas dispute this, then lets hear it. The days of "lets talk in private" are over. 2004 baby!
 
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