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But you could be a defendant, plaintiff, or juror*.
The more informed you are, the better off you are.
*barring any undisclosed legal issues, like a felony, on your record.
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Forum membership has its advantages....
MDR update
- Thread starter retroblazer
- Start date
But you could be a defendant, plaintiff, or juror*.
The more informed you are, the better off you are.
*barring any undisclosed legal issues, like a felony, on your record.
Travisfab
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How about we let those people start a new thread instead of beating a dead horse. This thread is a loose loose situation.
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People are reading THIS thread, and I'd wager most figure the only "MDR update" forthcoming will be concerned with judgements and bankrupty, not future racing.
What's "loose loose" mean? I've heard of loose women, lugnuts and bearings, but no loose "looses."
bobylax
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I've been debating on if to chime in here. What bothers me about this whole mess, is that if ALL parties are culpable for some form of negligence, why should there be ANY lawsuits? (Lawyers maybe?) If someone puts themselves in harms way knowinngly, or innocently "because everybody else was standing there!" YOU are responsible for your actions! (And I use the term "innocently" loosely here, as I doubt there were many if any people at the Rock Pile that were just cruising down I15, and said "What's going on over there? Let's check it out!!) My assumption is that evrey person there that night knew the inherint dangers of off-road racing, and if they didn't, common sense should have educated them quickly enough.
If MDR the BLM or Sherriff knew this was a potentially dangerous spectator area, but because of funding, staffing or indifference, didn't monitor and implement some form of crowd control, THEY are responsible!
If the driver in question in dusty conditions at dusk, driving into a sketchy area surrounded by spectators, doesn't demonstrate some form of caution and have the common sense to lift, HE is responsible!!
Why is it that everyone wants to try and "Hit the Lottery" and point fingers and try and prove that even though they were stupid, they're going to sue you because you were stupid too!!! "Can't we all just get along?" and agree this was a tragic accident, learn from these mistakes to see if we can drastically mimimize the chance of this ever happening again and move forward? I volunteer for BITD, and I know the risks, and I try as often as I can to keep myself, family and freinds that help, out of harms way, which isn't always possible, but I educate my crew, newbies and veterans alike, every race about the dangers of being outside of a turn, when the dust gets thick, back away from the course, when flagging a situation on the course, try to be visable for at least 100 yards, etc... I would guestimate that 1/4 of my day at the Parker races is spent doing crowd control, and trust me, if I had a choice of hanging with family and friends, helping down riders or broke vehicles, taking pictures, or dealing with the DGAF'rs that don't think the rules apply to them, dealing with "Richard Craneums" would NOT be on my list!!! I am responsible for myself and my crew at every race, and it's sad that I have to be responsible for the morons that don't want to be responible for themselves. I applaud Casey for his efforts to establish spectator areas, and hope other promoters get on board. You'll never be able to police a whole course, and you will always have the dickwads that think the world owes them something, and rules don't apply to them, but I'm glad to see that there are efforts being made to make this a more enjoyable, safe experience for racers and spectators alike.
I am RESPONSIBLE for the comments and opinions in this post, and even though I have no legal expertise, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last week!
If MDR the BLM or Sherriff knew this was a potentially dangerous spectator area, but because of funding, staffing or indifference, didn't monitor and implement some form of crowd control, THEY are responsible!
If the driver in question in dusty conditions at dusk, driving into a sketchy area surrounded by spectators, doesn't demonstrate some form of caution and have the common sense to lift, HE is responsible!!
Why is it that everyone wants to try and "Hit the Lottery" and point fingers and try and prove that even though they were stupid, they're going to sue you because you were stupid too!!! "Can't we all just get along?" and agree this was a tragic accident, learn from these mistakes to see if we can drastically mimimize the chance of this ever happening again and move forward? I volunteer for BITD, and I know the risks, and I try as often as I can to keep myself, family and freinds that help, out of harms way, which isn't always possible, but I educate my crew, newbies and veterans alike, every race about the dangers of being outside of a turn, when the dust gets thick, back away from the course, when flagging a situation on the course, try to be visable for at least 100 yards, etc... I would guestimate that 1/4 of my day at the Parker races is spent doing crowd control, and trust me, if I had a choice of hanging with family and friends, helping down riders or broke vehicles, taking pictures, or dealing with the DGAF'rs that don't think the rules apply to them, dealing with "Richard Craneums" would NOT be on my list!!! I am responsible for myself and my crew at every race, and it's sad that I have to be responsible for the morons that don't want to be responible for themselves. I applaud Casey for his efforts to establish spectator areas, and hope other promoters get on board. You'll never be able to police a whole course, and you will always have the dickwads that think the world owes them something, and rules don't apply to them, but I'm glad to see that there are efforts being made to make this a more enjoyable, safe experience for racers and spectators alike.
I am RESPONSIBLE for the comments and opinions in this post, and even though I have no legal expertise, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last week!
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Drake- Last time I looked, there were signs posted on California Freeways that make it a citable offense to walk, ride bicycles, etc... on freeways. They ARE NOT open to Pedestrian traffic, just as the front straight, back straight, and all 4 corners of Indy are closed to pedestrians during a race. Racers do not have an expectation of pedestrians on the course, and I believe the courts would agree that if a pedestrian, spectator, pitter, etc... was on the course, they have due diligence to prevent any accidents with the racers above and beyond any standard avoidance a racer might be able to take. They are, after all, not racers but on the race course. I am not excusing or supporting racers doing whatever they please when they see spectators, but I believe that spectators on or near any race course have the majority of responsibility not to be involved in an accident with racers.
frostbite36
Capt. Hindsight
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BTW, there has not been one shred of an MDR update in this thread...
No disrespect for those killed, or injured, or personally involved, but I know someone will be offended here. I apologize ahead of time.
If you are 18 Years old and stand next to an active race course and get mowed down, it is YOUR responsibility. If not 18 years old, it is the adult person's responsibility, who put the minor there.
There is a reason it is thrilling to stand there for those who chose to...it is somewhat dangerous...whether they will admit it or not!! If they do not they are either lying or ignorant to physics. Unfortunately, ignorance is not a defense in a court of law...normally. Ignorance certainly won't keep you safe. Whenever I've ever spectated...long before I was ever a racer, I knew to stand the heck back!!! There should be no expectation of safety, implied or otherwise, as a spectator, at a non-directed spectator area, at an open desert race. Had this been a paid spectator entry area or "designated spectator area" by the organizer, then there might have been some implied level of safety. The truth is, there is no money to be had from MDR anyway, even if they had built such a spectator area that day.
As to due-diligence by the racer... I guess you would have to prove BOTH that he knew the spectators were there at that point and there was an EXPECTED and REASONABLE danger of striking them, to blame Mr. Sloppy. I believe he expected that his vehicle was safe to operate under those conditions (even with the hazards of rocks, jump, and spectators) and did not have a reasonable expectation that he would have a steering or mechanical malfunction at that critical moment. The question is, would a "reasonable person" under those same circumstances act differently? I slow down a bit when I see spectators or recovery vehicle on a course, but if I lost my steering at that moment, the same thing would happen. In the videos, I saw numerous vehicles go by that same point without a different reaction...not slowing down one bit. Were they reasonable? We know there was a collision, but how was Brett's actions different from all the other racers? He did not purposely drive off the course.
Besides...there is NOTHING to be had here...he is not rich and there is NO insurance money to be had. I guess you can strip the poor bastard of all his personal belongings, for revenge??
This whole thing sucks...from beginning to end. No one will be happy with any outcome anymore...thus this flame-thread still lives.
No disrespect for those killed, or injured, or personally involved, but I know someone will be offended here. I apologize ahead of time.
If you are 18 Years old and stand next to an active race course and get mowed down, it is YOUR responsibility. If not 18 years old, it is the adult person's responsibility, who put the minor there.
There is a reason it is thrilling to stand there for those who chose to...it is somewhat dangerous...whether they will admit it or not!! If they do not they are either lying or ignorant to physics. Unfortunately, ignorance is not a defense in a court of law...normally. Ignorance certainly won't keep you safe. Whenever I've ever spectated...long before I was ever a racer, I knew to stand the heck back!!! There should be no expectation of safety, implied or otherwise, as a spectator, at a non-directed spectator area, at an open desert race. Had this been a paid spectator entry area or "designated spectator area" by the organizer, then there might have been some implied level of safety. The truth is, there is no money to be had from MDR anyway, even if they had built such a spectator area that day.
As to due-diligence by the racer... I guess you would have to prove BOTH that he knew the spectators were there at that point and there was an EXPECTED and REASONABLE danger of striking them, to blame Mr. Sloppy. I believe he expected that his vehicle was safe to operate under those conditions (even with the hazards of rocks, jump, and spectators) and did not have a reasonable expectation that he would have a steering or mechanical malfunction at that critical moment. The question is, would a "reasonable person" under those same circumstances act differently? I slow down a bit when I see spectators or recovery vehicle on a course, but if I lost my steering at that moment, the same thing would happen. In the videos, I saw numerous vehicles go by that same point without a different reaction...not slowing down one bit. Were they reasonable? We know there was a collision, but how was Brett's actions different from all the other racers? He did not purposely drive off the course.
Besides...there is NOTHING to be had here...he is not rich and there is NO insurance money to be had. I guess you can strip the poor bastard of all his personal belongings, for revenge??
This whole thing sucks...from beginning to end. No one will be happy with any outcome anymore...thus this flame-thread still lives.
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Did you miss the descriptor "wayward" in my quote you posted?
BTW: wasn't it common knowledge that Johnson Valley is an "open OHV" area, with no legal restrictions on hikers' and pedestrians' access?
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Perhaps not, but certainly lucky.
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Size of crowd could have been an indicator, as a past bike racer, any pedestrians near the course indicate danger of one kind or another: terrain, broken car, person down, people drunk, people angry, etc.
BTW: No call from your dad yet, unless he blocks his ID, I got a couple of those calls today, but don't answer them and the callers chose to leave no messsage.
dan200
#BSF200
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Ok, so this ^^^^ is speculation. Do you know what was visible from the cab of his truck? What announcements had been made that the setback had been ignored? It was my understanding that he launched, bounced, and rolled. Before he launched and could have checked up, was there any reason that he shpould have, since six or so other vehicles went before him?
Why should he have expected there to be people 6 feet from the course at the base of a landing on a course with a setback rule?
I said you can call him. But, hes ten bucks a minute so please have your payment ready...
dan200
#BSF200
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Can you see the landing before you jump?
this topic..like a lot...is not about learning or changing..it seems to be about blaming. regardless of your feelings, as an uninvolved person directly impacted...a lot of the comments are completely false. while they incite deep emotional anger in a lot of people, they still, are...false. The lawsuits..to which i know exactly HOW MANY there are..and who is suing who....you'd be surprised BTW....is really not even asked. I know i am the unliked guy because from the start i have said..and still say..no...I will not say this tragedy is about saying spectators are dumb..case closed..lets move along. This topic, in its youthful audience, is best closed if it could be that simple. Things change...dont fear change...learn it..work with it...see if it benefits you or harms you before judging the very idea of change. What i like..is what dan200 said..it was awesome to see the grouping form for a central cause..people helping fellow enthusiast in the sport they commonly share and love. The desert. I dont think all the various directly involved parties are proud or happy with being a part of this tragically written scene. I dont think the people who hurt to this day through the loss of their loved ones..or their daily pains..are proud of what life dealt them. Like music...it was an 8 track..then a cassette..then a cd..then mp3..now itunes..it evolved..but in the end..were all still enjoying the music. And that should be what matters most..if you truly love your desert sports...adaptation. I can say that my litigation has nothing in it about closures..restrictions..or the like. While we continue to play the blame game..things are happening though..good or bad. All I have ever wanted is to say thank you to all the people who cared..who gave. It has been a hard road since that night..both for my body..somewhat for my finances...and for the losses I have had..some of you should feel very happy to know my closest buddies are no more..when i go to the desert..i go alone..with jakob..afraid to say my name..I have read your posts..in some cases received your threats...but none the less i have continued to be me. Im not a sue happy person..I dont look for wealth off someone else..before this i was never in a lawsuit. I'd never been sued before either. And I, like so many of you didnt realize that if your involved in an accident your medical provider will sue for their losses..whether you want to or not. The waters on this whole matter are deep. They go well beyond perceptions..but in reality..most post perceptions..like "brett is being hounded daily"..i know him.....lol..err..no..read statue of limitations. False..oh my..I could go on. I often wonder how many of us have crossed paths and didnt know it. How many of you borrowed a tool from my camp..or i strapped up and towed over the years? My kid has read or heard a lot of your smack..and i remind him about that night..of who we are...son..wasnt i the one who denied medical aid so others could be helped? Yes. yet, in the end..I was the most critically injured to live...wasnt I the last one to leave the hospital? yes... because of my injuries. ya see...at the moment of need...or pleasure to hurt...disrespect, or self gluttany..this is how people are. I was the last flight to leave the ground that night. all of what i just said is a fact. And no i dont say it to pat myself on the back by any means..i say it simply to say to say that caring is important. Human compassion is important. It is something we have lost in this country...kick a dude and gang up on him and beat him within his life..your cool. Talk smack about dead people..say their idiots..keep the stick swinging at the delapitated pinata..your cool...but be careful friend..for someday you may be the pinata.To all the racers who wanna say.."effing spectators"..what you really say is that when your in your truck..you dont give an eff...and the world belongs to you..so whomever you hurt..whomever you kill..it will be their problem..wowza..I am amazed at some of your thinking..you belong in a closed course arena..not an open desert..your a danger to the world..and self fulfilled..your....sick in my mind...people matter..lives matter...not a single race. Not in an environment to which others also have a right to be at. If you wanna "own" the desert..its called private property..put a fence up..then argue they shouldnt have been there..until then....no..with your ideology..it is you who shouldnt be there..your the danger to the rest of the public..and so..accidents will happen..right? i think there could be a happy medium..but it will never get there until we move on beyond blamegame..and yes..this will require everyones effort... KOh has figured it out well..BITD has figured it out...Primm has figured it out....I guess it can be figured out then. If some of you would take some of your haterblamer passion and effort and focus it on your sport..it would get figured out. Lets honor the deads lives by making a positive sport in their honor. Thats my thoughts. dont focus on me..i'm nobody in the end. And like stated before..no part of what is going on in my personal life is out to close down or shut down this sport.
pdailey
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Nope..
dan200
#BSF200
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But, has been suggested that he "should have slowed down because he was heading into a crowd"....
pdailey
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I'm sure he didn't expect people standing in the race course on the back side of that jump. That's for sure.
dan200
#BSF200
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Blaming.... Isnt that what a lawsuit does?