More V2R Rules Questions

OldGreen

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The blue is the track taken and the orange is the race course for Day 2 at V2R. The part that was cut off is 32 miles. The rules state that "short coursing" results in automatic DQ. Should it matter what the "excuse" is?

So far, a penalty was given (5 hours I think), but the racer was still given a finish.

IF my race car had "accidentally" cut 30+ miles of course off, I would expect to be DQ'd. If it was YOU, what would you expect????

For the record, these guys are not "cheaters". . .at least not in my opinion, but they did violate a very specific rule. (SEC15). At least one other vehicle missed the same turn, but they figured out the problem within a mile or so and went back to the proper track.

I won't identify the team in question, but they may chime in on their own. I have NO hard feelings towards them. This is simply another case of how the rules were or were not applied. BITD was made aware of the situation and the rule was referenced, but the final results have not been published.

Here is the rule:

SEC15: A marked course is that official route designated by and marked with official Best In The Desert Racing Association markings. All vehicles must follow this route during the event. No vehicle may deviate from the marked course at any time unless the course is wide enough to pass. Passing is only permitted where there is no vegetation on the side of the course. Short coursing is not permitted and will result in disqualification. Short coursing is defined as any deviation from the marked course for any reason other than passing. No deviation from marked course including passing is permitted in sensitive areas. Deviation from the marked course in these areas is automatic disqualification. Sensitive areas are those, which are, marked by Best In The Desert Racing Association markings and DQ signs. Best In The Desert Racing Association is not responsible for markings that are damaged or removed. All vehicles must drive only in the correct direction of the course route or trail. Driving backwards on the racecourse at any time is prohibited. Driving backwards on the course is grounds for penalties of up to and including disqualification and/or suspension.
 

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johnnyweb

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What area is that spot in? What pit was soon after?
 

OldGreen

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Between Pit 4 and Pit 5. Actually JUST after pit 4.
 

Tipracer

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saving time is the main reason for doing things like this INTENTIONALLY...getting lost can and does happen(strange though no GPS?), 5hr penalty is pretty stiff , but it is up to the race director...have a question ask him and/or the team.
The real question is did they avoid any carnage...maybe time penalty should have been stiffer
 
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saving time is the main reason for doing things like this INTENTIONALLY...getting lost can and does happen(strange though no GPS?), 5hr penalty is pretty stiff , but it is up to the race director...have a question ask him and/or the team.
They were ahead of us, and we made the pit closing time easily.
 

OldGreen

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So, who decides whether or not it was intentional?
 

johnnyweb

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let me guess the short cut route was a smooth gravel road right down into the pit and the fence that separated it was down. What was the name of the pit you came into after that section?
 

OldGreen

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I think that it was coming into Millers. . .I think. . .I got in the truck at Pit 5 and it happened just after Pit 4. RM480 to 513(ish) were cut off.
 

Jack

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Are car made an error there, and once they noticed, they went back and got on course.
 

johnnyweb

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If I recall properly when I was running in your class another (unnamed) Competitor in the class took the short cut. He even admitted to it later and blamed it on his GPS was not working and no penalty was assessed. Back then we did not even use GPS and had no problem taking the right way. He was still given the WIN! We ended up 3rd and the 2nd place guy and I were pissed however it is history know.
 

OldGreen

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That's the thing. The course is so well marked that even if a corner marker was down, the fact that you don't see any mile markers gave most everyone a clue.
 

Broncodawg

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I was the pit boss you reported this too at pit 5 and I radioed it in to race ops. Seems like a 5 hour penalty put you comfortably ahead of them without having to DNF them for the day. The 5 hours is probably worse than the max time allotted for a DNF and you still got to race against him and isn't the thrill of that what this is all about?

One day you'll be glad to just get a time penalty and not be DQed, it all comes around.
 

jo maoma

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SEC15: ...Short coursing is not permitted and will result in disqualification. Short coursing is defined as any deviation from the marked course for any reason other than passing.....
i'm guessing in cutting 30 miles from the course he had to have passed a few people.... j/k :D
 

OldGreen

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So, that means that the rules don't matter and that they can be ignored.

I didn't report to any pit captain. That may have been another team. I would EXPECT to be DQ'd for cutting the course if the rules said that was what would happen. I do not expect the rules to be any different for any other competitor. If there are NO rules or the rules say "up to the discretion of XYZ official" then, yes, I would agree.

We don't really have a lot to gain if the ruling is changed (we are quite a ways behind 7384 in the points and there isn't a ton of money at stake). My problem is that a rule is a rule. There is NO grey area in a situation like this.
 

OldGreen

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i'm guessing in cutting 30 miles from the course he had to have passed a few people.... j/k :D
NOW THAT IS FUNNAAAAY!! :D

He was faster than the TTs in that section and passed like 25% of the field!!! I can only imagine what it felt like to roll through pit 5, way ahead of your pit crew with a few unlimited teams still hanging around, wondering WTF was going on and just knowing that you screwed up.
 

GlamisGurlie

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I'm not sure what car # you're talking about (I don't need to know) but there were a few cars that missed the R/H turn after you left Pit 4 due to driving straight into the sun late in the afternoon. I did have one of those car's crews come up to me in a flat out panic about it after their driver called on the phone when he realized what had happened. They had no radio communication with their car, but only had cell communication with the driver, and that was very hit and miss even while they were standing with me. He was pretty far out there by that time. I called in and asked what to do and was told to tell the team to not double back to my pit to start again - that they would be given a time penalty instead. This was not an intentional short coursing. They were more than willing to try and find the highway, come back to Pit 4 and do it all over again. And what Greg said (Broncodawg) is something to think about. It could be you in that situation next time :)
 

OldGreen

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OK, if the team was TOLD by BITD not to double back, then all is right with the world. That is completely different. I would imagine that it is the same team or maybe the same situation. Like I stated before, I've got no beef with the team, I just want to make sure that the rules are the same for everyone. I have never had any kind of a beef with BITD. They simply do a great job.

We have been saved by pit captains and officials more than once, but there was never a rule in question. . .just pit times.
 

D Bergstrom

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In my few years of racing with BITD, Casey very rarely DQ's anyone. I have seen other races where a time penalty is given instead of a DQ for cutting the course. (The time penalty is always worse then actually going the right way.) Was it intensional or a accident? Only one person knows for sure, and that is the driver. I think Casey usually gives people the benefit of the doubt and just gives a big time penalty. He realizes that we all spend big money to do this, and he does not want to see anyone get DQ'ed if is was on accident. This was probably the best marked course I have ever been on, but there was a few times that I still wondered what way the course went.

Now, if this was a loop race, and someone kept cutting the course lap after lap, I bet then they would get DQ'ed.

Doug
 

OldGreen

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Yep. That's true. Here's the bad news, this team probably SHOULD have gone back and done it the right way. They were far enough ahead due to overheating issues on day 1 by the other members of the class that they would have likely won if they had doubled back and lost 1/2 an hour or so. So, it was a no win situation for everyone involved. Hindsight, of course, is always 20/20. At any rate, our position wouldn't have been changed and we are thrilled with 3rd place. What an adventure that race was. I wish our motor would have held on for the last 280 miles, but it was still one for the ages.
 
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