Our Country II (Deer vs Durango)



"Ouch!

That picture of the Durango (red truck) and the deer, has quite an interesting
story behind it.
The bridge in the background is where it all started. The deer jumped off the
bridge ONTO the Durango.
Off-road.com has a whole thread, plus a lot more pics of the truck. Trully a
pants shattering experience for the driver who was more than a little shook up!"
-- A.H. (Eric) Sommer
CommerceQuest South Africa (Pty) Limited

I just got this in from a S. African offroad list, they claim it was written up in off-road.com. Except I can't find the article in off-road.com (search engine for "deer durango" doesn't come up with anything), can anyone give me a link?

I remember Danny Cau (formerly HDRA, & then SCORE) telling me the FIRST thing he's confronted with by xxx, is a picture of an offroad vehicle "kicking up dirt" (aka "Tearing Up the Desert"). No wonder, offroad racing is losing out to the environmentalists. The above photo is the opposite -- it should be widely printed as part of a media campaign, to demonstrate that WWF (World Wildlife Fund) is supporting "terrorism against 4x4s"!!

If George Bush Jr (idiot) thinks it's economically/militarily/politicall feasible (NOT!) to go halfway across the world with 1/4 million troops (god knows how many billion dollars & how many yrs of military presence) to take out a Banana Republic dictator in support of "anti-terrorism" (a fabrication or illusion..I still can't figure out which), I would think he could throw a few million $$ & military troops to protect offroad land use rights against the extremist branch of environmentalists ( (well financed & use dirty tactics). Uh, on 2nd thought.. nah. That's expecting too much from Washington DC.

"Suppose you were an idiot & suppose you were a Congressman, but I repeat myself"
-- Mark Twain
[ this quote was back from the 1800's, so not much has changed apparently ]

"No sign of intelligent life"
-- Carl Sagan, COSMOS series on PBS (LANDSAT picture of Washington DC)

"I have to admit that after watching those idiots Democrats in Palm Beach
early this morning, as well as for the past few days, continue the farce
we must conclude that we ARE ugly Americans. Instead of me telling someone
else to "get f*d" I must say - f* me. If the F-word offends any of
you then send your complaints to Clinton - the inventor of the Blow House."
-- Jeff Beish/ALPO, sci.astro.amateur
[ "The world is doomed/Ugly Americans" thread, s.a.a. ]

I thought the Democrats topped the Republicans (Nixon's "tricky dick" reputation, Watergate scandal), with Clinton's interpretation of "tricky dick" -- the shenanigans of unloading a pack of semen into a nymphomaniac's mouth (comparable age of his daughter Chelsea). I really believe George Jr. will "top this".. he is well on his way on a path called "Beginning of the End" if decides to goto war with Iraq (& thus the entire Muslim world). We can expect to get our American rear-ends kicked..again. It will make 9-11 look like firecracker. God knows, how this thing could spiral out of control.

"Cooler heads prevail"
"Don't get into any fights"
-- Roger Penske, advice to Gil De Ferran (won a CART season championship that year)
[ translation: don't get into any skirmishes with your competitors, just run your own pace & make your move at the end of the race. Rick Mears followed Penske's advice & was a master at "taking care of the car", & then making his move at the end..that's why he has FOUR..count'em..FOUR Indy 500 wins. ]

"<we'll set our own pace, & see where we stand [ in class & overall ] at the 3/4 point. At that point, we'll go racing>"
-- xxx crew chief, Baja 500 ('93?)
[ anyone know the exact quote, & who it was? I heard it on the ESPN broadcast, I could dig it up from my video archives. The above is a standard rule among racers: keep the car together & finish strong at the end. It's like in a 1 mile running race, you let the other guy spend his energy & you pass him at the end (strong "kick")

Robby used this philosophy in getting the overall win @ Baja 500 many years back:

"We were leading in Class 8, & near Erendeira we found ourselves near the overall leaders. We decided to go for it..Go for the Gusto, Go for the Overall"
-- Robby Gordon, winner Class 8 Baja 500 & Overall Winner (forgot the yr)
[ post Baja 500 interview on ESPN, I have it on tape somewhere. This & the previous quote echo Sun Tzu's philosophy on war ( ultimate form of competition )

"Know yourself, know your enemy (desert & your competition), & you will never be defeated in a hundred battles"
-- Sun Tzu, Art of War


[ from Nick Baldwin's Class 1 @San Felipe 250, 1999. The "Hedgehog" car ]

, & that is to NEVER underestimate your enemy. I.e., don't get arrogant & push too hard, too fast, too soon. "Nice & Easy, that's the way to do it". Robby Gordon had an interesting quote on TV while practicing for the California 500 (might have been the race Greg Moore was killed), "Smooth is Fast". No jerky steering wheel or accelerator pedal movements, take a nice smooth line into corners without any braking. Being quick, means not losing momentum ]

Strategy #1: Cooler Head ("Thinker")
Save your energy ( US budget, US troops, energy) & your car ( USA country) & keep a steady pace ("don't get into any stupid fights" concentrate on your "program"). Finish strong at the end..it's a LONG RACE (i.e., endurance counts! It's just as much endurance, as it is high-performance)

Strategy #2: Hot Head ("more Testerone than Brains")
do something stupid & impulsive (send 1/4 million troops halfway across the world without FIRST getting political support, etc, etc, thereby forcing yourself to do something ("backing yourself in a corner") or worse yet pulling all of them back..what a waste of money & energy), & wreck your car (destroy your country economically, politically, militarily).

Paul Tracy (CART) is a good example of Strategy #2, one of Greg Moore's Canadian friends was telling me "he isn't a deep thinker". Well, sorry to say, that's basically a synopsis of our president George W. Bush, Jr!! Michael Andretti is always a hard charger @Indy, but can't keep the car together to finish the race (I think he has the record for most laps led at Indy), there's the famous Indy race where his engine dies & his radio chatter goes like "I can't believe it, the it just quit!?". Well, yeah, if your approach is too agressive, the car won't stay together. (Bush Jr. is jumping the gun, pushing way too hard. America is coming off as the agressor..NOT a good thing. As JrSyko pointed out the agressors have lost 5 straight wars in recent memory). Remember Alain Prost, the French Formula 1 driver who has a ton of F1 championships (4?). They nicknamed him "The Professor", because he drove SMART: he took care of his tires, so he never faded at the end of the race. Funny thing..the French are "like the US, but against George Bush Jr" (much like the Brits)..I think I see a parallel between Formula 1 & US vs French (Iraq crisis). The French seem to be THINKING..whereas George Bush Jr... AIN'T (& thereby dragging sensible Americans into the mess, incl those troops who have to do the dirty work). Anyone catch the Formula 1 race over the
weekend? It was a perfect demonstration of why agressive driving & mistakes can LOSE a race

"You can never win a race on race-day [ head shaking ], you can only LOSE it!"
-- Ray Evernham, Jeff Gordon's ("Paint Boy") crew chief, TV special on NASCAR
[ translation: the winner was the guy who made the fewest mistakes. As Walker Evans told me @ '93 Baja 500 where he got 2nd place in Class 8 "I was the first to lose". Nelson&Nelson's 2nd driver (Ricky Johnson) got 1st, even finishing ahead of the N&N's top-gun Larry Ragland. Ricky Johnson drove a clean error-free race..and WON ]

"In order to finish FIRST, you must FIRST finish"
-- Rod Hall, Class 4 racer

as McLaren's David Coulthard won the
freakin' race after have a miserable 11th (?) qualifying. He hung in
there the whole race, as Schumacher (leading at the time over Montoya)
was black-flagged for barge-boards for falling off (equipment problems). Then, Montoya spun
out in a corner (commentators theorize due to worn out tires: the last
pitstop had bad team tactics in NOT changing tires). Yeah, 3rd place Coulthard (behind Schumi & Monty) became..2nd place Coulthard (behind Monty) who then became..FIRST place Coulthard..who finished the race & WON!! If you analyze the race, Coulthard WON.. because the 1st & 2nd place cars made mistakes.

[ this is where Bush Jr is failing, he's not smart enough to see some FUNDAMENTAL mistakes he's making. Anyone can make the analogy with auto-racing (a "bloodsport" competition, the closest thing we have to war) & see why a Hot Head approach will fail (vs a "Cooler Heads Prevail", a Robby Gordon Baja 500 strategy: win your class FIRST...then go for the OVERALL win. Not, do a Mikey Andretti "Go For Broke" approach & end up with nothing), as per Jr Syko. Hel*, everyone all over the world is seeing these mistakes & is screaming bloody murder:"You've gotta be kidding me, right?? Be the instigator for a war? Get outta here!!"..not having political support (a really BIG deal. There's a well known saying in offroad racing "Help the people who help you", Re: pitting. Well, we NEED support from other countries..our pit support. Well, we don't have it. Uh, we're finished..that's how we LOSE the whole war at the outset. Man, that's DUMB. That's, vintage Bush Jr!! He doesn't have any brains.). Blair is on the ropes in UK, his "cookie is crumbling"..he is in BIG trouble: his own party is in revolt & people are threatening to resign if Iraq-US thing goes down. USA is not in an economically viable position to take on an $$ war with what..15 yrs of occupation, at the same time in Afghanistan??!! There's more, but I'll stop right here ]

"<If a 'C' average Yale student like me can make it to the White House, then you can make it too>"
-- George Bush Jr, commencement address to xx college
[ Colin Powell has a similar statement, see CNN People in the News. "I got bad grades in high school, & continued to get bad grades in college [ CCNY ]! <laughter>". I don't think it's FUNNY that 2 academic retards are running this country, while the same time are joking about their lack of academic achievement!! I guess Powell & Bush, along with that RiceBall (the professor is out of touch with reality, this was pointed out in a CNN People in the News profile of Condoleeze Rice), make a trio of dummies, leading this country straight into a massive blunder. Ever see that History Channel series called "Greatest Blunders in History"? Grave Error, Miscalculation, Mistakes.. ]

"Half the people in America never read a newspaper, half of them never voted. One hope it's the same half"
-- Gore Vidal

Yeah, the "Dumbing Down of America" really bit us in the a**. I guess we got what we deserved.

Yeah, that's what we need is bunch of idiots running this country. At least Clinton was a scholar of some sort (academic standout, post graduate study in UK), but became a serial-womanizer & topped it off in fine fashion: "blew it" with the Monica deal.

"..it's incoherent"
-- Zbigniew Brezhinski, CNN interview
[ commenting on recent US foreign policy in Middle East ]

It goes back to Clinton trying to rush thru a settlement between Israel & Arafat (recall that the report was that he was on the phone doing foreign policty while blowing Monica..I'm not kidding. The whole thing can be traced to Clinton trying for an "overall" win: getting blown by Monica (Class 8) & fixing the Middle East (overall win)..he lost both battles. The notorious stained blue dress: DNA evidence proved the "Dirty Deeds..done dirt cheap", as per ACDC song).

I quit for now, I swear this country is going nuts courtesy of some real lack of brain cells in Washington DC.

"I shall give a 6 word formula for success, FIRST..think things through, THEN..follow through"
-- Eddie Rickenbacker, Indy 500 winner & top scoring American ace in WWI
[ translation: he's a winner, because he used his head..the thing we call BRAIN ]

Let us now consider the original image ("a picture is worth a thousand words"):



This image would make a great political cartoon. I pose the question:

Given George Bush Jr/USA & Saddam Hussein/Iraq, who is the "deer" & who is the "driver of the red Durango"?

"Ouch!

That picture of the Durango (red truck) and the deer, has quite an interesting
story behind it.
The bridge in the background is where it all started. The deer jumped off the
bridge ONTO the Durango.
Off-road.com has a whole thread, plus a lot more pics of the truck. Trully a
pants shattering experience for the driver who was more than a little shook up!"
-- A.H. (Eric) Sommer
CommerceQuest South Africa (Pty) Limited

Let see, now..umm.

bridge = United Nations ("peer review" before going to war)
deer = George Bush Jr (jumped impulsively off the bridge)
Durango driver = Saddam "who was more than little shook up!"

Dudes... given the racing analogy ("Cooler heads prevail") & the above picture ("hotheads end up dead"), I think this Bush Jr character is about to screw himself & this country!!

Dudes, I don't what to say.

Except, have a good San Felipe 250 race. Leaving the good ole USA might be the best medicine for watching your home country self-destruct into another Vietnam-like fiasco. Staying down there while the borders are closed, might be better than coming back to a country starting a path to self-destruction. I can practically see the dirty nuke "baking" Los Angeles.

"What a big fat mess"
-- Liz Cho, ABC commentator (World News Now)
[ after a piece on the political chaos & wrangling @United Nations ]






"Go for the Gusto, Go for the Overall"
-- Robby Gordon, SCORE off-road champion
 
Oops, a couple of the quotes got snuffed..here are the missing ones:

"If a 'C' average Yale student like me can make it to the White House, then you can make it too"
-- George Bush Jr, commencement address to xx college
[ Colin Powell has a similar statement, see CNN People in the News. "I got bad grades in high school, & continued to get bad grades in college [ CCNY ]! <laughter>"....]

"we'll set our own pace, & see where we stand [ in class & overall ] at the 3/4 point. At that point, we'll go racing"
-- xxx crew chief, Baja 500 ('93?)

I like the last quote, it illustrates *endurance* as part of winning a battle/war/campaign. The long Baja races test the teams in this aspect, so Patience is the key. (ie, "don't rush things". a good wine needs to be matured..slowly). I remember the '01 Baja 1000 at the high speed rollers @Ojos. Lot of the younger inexperienced racers were getting BIG air (that one Class 12 car which got the biggest air, later got into it with a competitor & rolled before Borrego Jump)..most of the experienced guys (like Seeley/Class 5 & McMillin/Class 1) were cautious & not getting air..they were saving their car, knowing it was a long race.

The San Felipe race is 250 miler, a "sprint race". Kinda like the Trophy Dash the MTEG used to have as the opener race. It's so short, you don't have time to think, you just have to do "pedal to the metal". This is Bush Jr's mistake: he's treating the Iraq situation (a 500 miler: political/economic/military) like a pushover (a "sprint race", a demonstration of America's military might: a 2 week cakewalk incl massive airpower). Wrong strategy for the wrong race.

As was pointed out by an analyst, if this thing isn't a 2 week cakewalk ..the quagmire will drain the US & possible cripple us economically. Not to mention the political damage of our international credibility ("Once you lose credibility, YOU CAN NEVER GET IT BACK"). The ATA is predicting severe pressure on airline industry, all of them are losing money except Southwest Airlines. (many of them are on loans to keep them alive). What happens to this country if the airline industry goes kaput?

The Al Qaeda did a smart thing with 9-11 (their leadership had some thinkers, as opposed to Bush Jr's lack of brain cells), they hurt us economically. Put a real dagger to our airline industry (the Twin Towers was symbolic of America's industrial might, the fuel of our country economically). Al Qaeda must be laughing their heads off, that they goaded Bush Jr into pushing America into the final stage of possible economic ruin..their strategic goal behind 9-11: destroy the economic machine which fuels America's war machine (funding Israel's war against Palestine). The outrageous pump gas prices is just the beginning..which is why I won't be going to San Felipe!!

Bush Jr has basically fallen into an Al Qaeda trap of Retaliation. There's a basic mantra in the NHL Re: "mechanics of fighting":

"Instigate, don't Retaliate"

(Al Qaeda did the instigating, & goaded the USA into retaliating against Iraq. Thereby, taking pressure off Al Qaeda (Bin Laden has not been caught, & never will), getting USA to waste resources/energy (Afghanistan, now Iraq), creating a LARGER enemy..the entire Muslim world (i've seen reports of Jihad against Iraq invaders, by many groups)..the new religious war could now destroy the USA. Increased terrorism in USA & abroad ("human"), drain on USA resources ("economic"), destroying America's credibility with the rest of the world ("political") etc. In effect, Al Qaeda tricked the USA into pulling a boner. Only because, there are boneheads in Washington DC!!)

1) Player 1 (USA) gets cheapshotted by a dirty player 2 (Al Qaedo, Islamic extremist group). Happens all the time in hockey, as in life.
2) Player 1 (USA) loses composure ("not thinking", but "reacting") & retaliates against Player 2, gets caught by refs (United Nations "peer review"), gets sent to the Penalty Box, Player 2's team (Al Qaeda) goes on a Power Play with a man advantage for 2 (or more ) minutes. Player 2 team's scores a goal, & possibly wins the game (war)

End Result: Player 1 looks like the aggressor & the bad guy. If Player 1's team piles on (it happens in worst case scenarios, like the Redwings vs Avalanche. goalie (Mike Vernon..say Bush, Jr) VS goalie (Patrick Roa?...Saddam Hussein.). It's ridiculous: players not even involved in the initial skirmish involving 2 players, are going at it..in the name of supporting the "team". You have gloves & sticks all over the ice, & the hockey game has degraded into a brawl. "I went to a fight, & a hockey game broke out". Not good for parental training of kids. (US & Iraq look stupid to the entire world, & innocent people..US soldiers & Iraqi civilians.. get hurt)

It's like in the school grounds (fighting) or even racing (car 1 vs car 2). Someone pulls a boner, & the retaliator gets caught. (Robby vs Dale Earnhardt Jr, Robby gets flak for retaliating against Jr by rear ending him in pit-lane, crew chief: "Robby, why you tearing up his s*??!"). This is exactly the error Bush Jr is falling for, you'd swear this p**y never got into a fight in his life (probably, since Papa got him out of serving in Vietnam & got him all sorts of business priveleges), so he woulda learned. Bush Jr is desperately trying to prove to the United Nations (& the world) that US has a right to retaliate against Iraq (some desperate claim there is an Al Qaeda tie, never proven & is a fantasy).

There are some really good coments on Hockey & Fighting, which are very relevant to the US vs Iraq. I will put them up later. It's good to use analogies, because it gives insights to the parent issue, which otherwise might not be revealed.

I look forward to the race reports & will try to vicariously experience the sub-tropical weather. They're predicting rain on Sat in Los Angeles.

Note:
I'd like to add I'm not un-American, but anti-Bush. (both Brits & French are pro-US, but anti-Bush). I'm a big fan of the US Military (my hobby is WWII, Vietnam War), cuz I like the discipline & concept of "Negative Reinforcement".. it maintains control & stability in the world. It's shocking to see this country's policies act in opposition to its foundation: Mr. GoodGuy in the world. Well, ever since WWII, the US military has been the tool of blundering US politicians (I like Zbigniew Brezhinski's assessment: "incoherent"). This issue of Critical Thinking (the freedom to criticize US govt) is not equivalent to being un-patriotic..this common flaw by boneheads has been pointed out repeatedly recently in the media. Jessica Lange (actress) pointed this out recently, after her UN speech.


"Go for the Gusto, Go for the Overall"
-- Robby Gordon, SCORE off-road champion
 

robert_encinas

Well-Known Member
its just a deer dude, relax. probably got spooked by something.saddam has had 12 years to comply. he hasnt. i wouldnt say that we are rushing in to anything.bush is a lot more informed on this than you.it isnt his idea to just start a war.several factors are involved , as well as several countries.just like voting here ,you will have" yes" votes and you will have" no" votes
 

fathead1

Well-Known Member
I think what he was trying to get at is that if we go to war w/ Iraq, we will have a lot more deers jumping off bridges. I shake at the mear thought, I can only thank the good lord that I don't have any bridges by my house.
 

YZFster

Well-Known Member
You got way to much time on your hands........................

Go Big or stay there.
 

martininsocal

Well-Known Member
fathead- they already have jumped off the bridges. Just remember 9-11. It wasn't one act, and it was suppose to be bigger. If we do nothing, they will come. If we do everything, they may not be able to. We can sit here and be reactionary for the rest of our lives. Or, we can determine the course we want to take and do what it takes to traverse it. I will choose the latter, after 9-11, I don't like the way life has changed.

Martin

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

Donahoe

Well-Known Member
Bob... When you die could you leave your brain to me? I have some Freinds who might want to dry it out and SMOKE it. Its amazining what goes on in there.

NEVER LIFT!!!!!
 

JeffS

Well-Known Member
LOL ... imagine the pretty colors and 'comets' you would see.

I remember Bob from way back in the early days of the ORC prerunner mailing list. Oh wow... username should be BlowHardOrGoHome.

:)


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.RedRockOffroad.com>http://www.RedRockOffroad.com</A> - There is a fine line between Hobby and Mental Illness.
 

JrSyko

Jerry Maguire
I thought it was well thought out post with a lot of interesting comparisons. Lets see one of you pro-war guys put out a post even half that thought out (Martin excluded of course :) Don't bash the guy, he was trying to enlighten you one the ills of going to war in a way you would understand, put I guess thats impossible........

All he is saying is this is going to create more attacks against us then there would be if we did nothing........something you guys seem to forget or just choose to overlook as you want to see results now and don't care about whats going to happen in the future.

See ya in the dirt!
 

jeff

Moderator
Jr. - Did you allow the school bully to take your lunch everyday? I think that eventually something has to be done even if the consequences aren't so hot. Will attacking Iraq cause an increased likelyhood that others will use it as an excuse to increase attacks on the US? Maybe. Is going into Iraq the best plan? Maybe not. Does something need to be done to protect the US from outside terrorists? Abso-fing-lutely. Imagine if Terrorists start bombing childrens school buses, or the buses that make the LA to Vegas run... what would that do to the American hysteria? Do you try to contain the problem or prevent the problem? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Regardless, I agree that everyone should get their chance to voice their opinion and that flaming someone for their opinion isn't warranted. The bigger problem I see is people get more fired up over a Ford / Chevy / Dodge thread than the WAR related thread. People would rather claim superiority by driving a Blue Oval than be pro or con going to war.

Aloha
 

fathead1

Well-Known Member
Martin,
My comment was more about the deer then about the war, unfotunately, sarcarsim isn't always relayed well in post/ e-mails, I for one , am behind the war, I feel we need to resolve this, obviosly, the U.N. in my opinion, is not doing it's job, or we would not have to act ( or react) the way we are.
My brother just got back from duty after being gone since 10/01.

MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA
and to be fair to everyone...
MAY YOUR HIGHER POWER BLESS AMERICA....
( a little more sarcasim ) : )
 

martininsocal

Well-Known Member
Jeff is right, but to expand in a more worldly way. While the U.S. has only experience a few attacks on our own soil(which was unbelievable until it happened), there are countries out there right now that are under attack by the Muslim factions trying to push their religious agenda> I am not bashing Muslims, I am bashing the agenda the extremists take as I do with any religious extremist. Your choice of religion is between you and your superior being if that is what you choose. You can be agnostic, you can be Evangelical, you can be Taoist, you can be Christian, it doesn't matter aslong as you keep it personal and allow others to believe what they do. Right now, that is not happening in THE WORLD. Not just the Middle East, but in many places. Extreme Muslims have attacked the basic WAY of Life in America, the Phillipines, Eurasia, Asia, Africa, Malaysia...need I go on? While many refuse to beleive that Iraq is a threat and therefor should be left alone, yet they think something should be done with North Korea, how long will it be before Iraq is in the same position as North Korea? We are talking about a leader who uses poison gases on his own people. Left to his own designs, what do you think will happen? Prevention is the KEY word here. Sure, we should have taken the guy out 12 years ago, but the stomach of the world wouldn't tolerate it. The same folks who watched as Hitler built up a force that kicked their a$$es in WW II are the same ones who don't want conflict now. I see a pattern. The U.N. has shown the ability to NOT lead when it comes to bullies and conflict in the world. Many of teh countries who have Veto Power in teh U.N. are not even world powers. Roosevelt put France on the Security Council after WW II, not their ability to wage war and repel attackers. Russia used to be a world power before their break-up. China was put on the Security Council prior to their Communist revolution in the 1970's. See another pattern? The only true power left on the Security Council is the U.S.. None of the other countries want to go to war or pay for a war, period. Some don't want to support anything the U.S. stands behind simply because it is the U.S.. well, the U.S. has decided to do the World a favor, and the rest of the World is afraid of the fall out. As I see it, they can pay for it now, or they can wait for the "inflation" to kick in and really pay for it later. Saddam will help any terrorist that wantsto stick it to the Evil Western World, infidels and all. To deny that is simply putting your head in the sand. Will it create more tension in the world, especially the western world? Probably, but I will take tension now with the attempts they will make as terrorists rather than an organized army bent on religious cleansing down the road, nuclear arms and all.
France has Iraq finacially indebted to it to the tune of Billions of dollars. France sold Iraq its Nuclear reactors. A new regime in Iraq could cost France Billions when they declare the old loans were to Hussein and his oppressive regime. As Bart Simpsom would say-" Cheese Eaten' Surrender Frogs!"

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

robert_encinas

Well-Known Member
kill em all. i wont lose one wink of sleep.that whole middle east area is screwed up anyway.my god is better than your god crap, a religious war can never be won. if your god is so great prove it
does anyone even care about korea? i dont.we even helped those ungreatful bastards out in the 50s, f-em.
 
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