PearlHarbor in reverse..Schlesinger on Bush

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Sherman tank commander, street fighting in Germany (WWII)
from TV series "War Chronicles" (war stories)

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[ this pictures summarizes what WWII was about: American boys going abroad.. "saving the world" from Bad Guys (in this case the Nazis). A lot of American blood was shed in Europe..the cemeteries there are sobering reminder ]

On this positive note from history, the "Iraq War" that Bush Jr started apparently is a huge BLUNDER!! Have you seen the anti-war protests all over the world?? Athens, UK, New Zealand, Indonesia, Russia..&amp; of course USA (125,000 today in New York City, 30 city blocks worth!!). The pro-war group is measly &amp; way outnumbered. To use a legal term from JrSyko's field, "the preponderance of evidence" is not good for USA. This is a Public Relations DISASTER.

Check out the article which has an interview with historian Arthur Schlesinger:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/889365.asp?0cb=-41n143917

Whew!!..bad news for Bush Jr &amp; his supporters!! (as per Junior Syko's comments on , who seems to be informed &amp; educated..he's a law student). Here are some excerpts:

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‘Pearl Harbor in Reverse’
Historian Arthur Schlesinger, former JFK confidant and the country’s preeminent liberal historian, views America’s war on Iraq with “deep gloom”
By Brian Braiker
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE

NEWSWEEK: How would you describe Bush as a wartime president?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Well I think he’s made a fatal mistake. I think we’ve made a fatal mis-turn in our foreign policy by abandoning the doctrine of containment-plus-deterrence (which won the Cold War peacefully), and adopting as the basis of our foreign policy preventive war. Preventive war, anticipatory self-defense, was the doctrine with which the Japanese justified Pearl Harbor. FDR, an earlier American president, said that it was a date that will live in infamy. And now the Bush doctrine is a doctrine of preventive war, which makes America the self-appointed world’s judge, jury and executioner. However benign the motives, it’s bound to have a corrupting effect on our leadership. I think the whole notion of America as the world’s judge, jury and executioner is a tragically mistaken notion.
       
NEWSWEEK: Robert Kennedy called preventive war “Pearl Harbor in reverse.” Is that what we’re seeing now?
Arthur Shlesinger:
That’s what we’re seeing now. And no wonder we look to the rest of the world as a lumbering bully. I regard this with deep gloom.
       
NEWSWEEK: Are you suggesting that Bush and his administration lack a sense of history that is required of someone in this position?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Yes. I think they lack a sense of history. They lack an instinct of respect for the views of other countries. It’s “the rest of the world is OK only insofar as it conforms to the views of the White House.” And I don’t think this is a healthy position for the White House to have.
       
NEWSWEEK: How does aggression against Saddam Hussein, as you have said, play into our enemies’ hands?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Anti-American zealots around the world are strengthened by the conduct of this administration, by their belief that the rest of the world has to conform to our issues, to our attitudes.
       
NEWSWEEK: But does containment even work against someone like Saddam?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Yeah, he was contained for ten years. The last thing he would do would be to commit an act of aggression because an act of aggression would legitimize the reaction of massive retaliation. He has not stirred beyond his own frontiers for ten years. As the C.I.A. has pointed out, the threat from Saddam Hussein will come only when we invade him.
       
NEWSWEEK: How will that threat manifest itself, in your opinion?
Arthur Shlesinger:
I have no idea.

NEWSWEEK: JFK’s Secretary of State Dean Acheson consigned Britain to a “tame and minor role in the world.” Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld recently referred to our allies as “old Europe.” Do you see parallels there?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Well, Dean Acheson was not secretary of State when he made that remark. He made it as a private citizen. Rumsfeld has succeeded in antagonizing most of the rest of world.
       
NEWSWEEK: So if personalities play a role in shaping history, then, what can you say about the personalities of Bush and Rumsfeld?
Arthur Shlesinger:
They’re ideologues. Bush seems to feel that he’s been appointed by the almighty to go to war with Iraq. But Iraq is far less of a clear and present danger than North Korea. North Korea has nuclear weapons. The difference in our treatment between Iraq and North Korea is strong incentive for other countries, other rogue states, to develop their own nuclear arsenal.
 
NEWSWEEK: Still, we are witnessing a rally-round-the-flag phenomenon of a new war-Bush’s approval ratings are above 70 percent. How long do you expect that to hold true?
Arthur Shlesinger:
Well, it all depends on how the war goes. I think the British have lost more men in the war than we have. I think the war will be over in two or three weeks, if it lasts more than a month, then I think the polls will be less enthusiastic about the war. 
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Arthur Shlesinger's "containment &amp; deterrence" doctrine could be summarized as:

"IT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX OTHER PEOPLE'S SCREWUPS!!"
-- anonymous

[ translation: don't go halfway across the world with guns blazing (like we're doing now), just contain the bastard (bleed him to death) &amp; he'll die off on his own. It's what happened to the former Soviet Union. My old high school history teacher (PhD Columbia) correctly predicted this back in the early 70's ]

WWII:
- an agressor (Nazi led Germany) attacked a bunch of European countries
- USA *resisted* involvement with the European conflict ("mind your own business"..don't get involved with other people's messes halfway across the world.. see above quote "it ain't my problem!!")...
- Germany declared War on USA (now...it became our problem!!)
- USA grudgingly jumped in, USA industry/military kicked into gear...&amp; the rest is history. USA became defender of the world..saved the world from a despot,
- USA reputation is great, the United Nations was formed. USA is the Number 1 force in preserving the peace 'round the world after WWII..uh..well..kinda ]


I want everyone to understand the "Mechanics of Foreplay to War": Country A (Nazi Germany) became the *agressor* &amp; Country B (USA, et al) responded by being *defender*. When Country B (USA) unleashed its military/industrial machine into Europe, it was viewed as the Good Guy: Defending Liberty. Good Guys won.

"Yes, it is written. Good shall always destroy evil."
-- Sirah the Yang, "The Omega Glory", stardate unknown
reply by McCoy:
"Good will win, but Evil is very VERY STRONG"

"... freedom ... is a worship word... It is our worship word too. "
-- Cloud William and Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"Look at these three words written larger than all the rest, and with special pride never written before or since -- tall words, proudly saying "We the people" .. these words and the words that follow ... must apply to everyone or they mean nothing."
... Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"Liberty and freedom have to be more than just words."
-- Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"When you're fighting for home, you "get down [ funky ]"
-- Vietnam Veteran (african american)
[ translation: Country B getting attacked is given the biggest motivational advantage. Vietnam is the perfect example. Afghanistan is the other, Russia's "Vietnam". The agressor troops have little motivation to fight a war far away from home. Which is what USA is doing..AGAIN. I don't doubt USA will have a military victory (it's early in the game..could get messy later on, street fighting in Baghdad), but the post-war effects could have USA being *perceived* as an occupier, not a liberator. Then, you could have a serious civil war among the various factions, with the USA being the largest. The ethnic &amp; religious complexities are enormous. ]


"The Will of the People"..wars are won NOT because of bombs or military power, but by the Will of the People. Japan made a mistake in attacking USA: Americans were p**d off, got motivated ("Will of the People")..men were volunteering to serve in the war. As Yamamoto ( leader of the Pearl Harbor attack) said "I fear we have woken a sleeping giant", i.e. he was predicting a LOSS for being the agressor.

"The battle is won, before it is fought"
-- Sun Tzu, Art of War
[ translation: Preparation &amp; Prelude (legitimacy of conflict: Side A is wrong [ agressor ] &amp; Side B is right [ defender ]) to War, decides it's outcome ]

You can see where I'm going with this. Unfortunately, the USA has made a giant blunder in becoming an agressor in a military sense.

History is NOT on the side of the USA, since we have become the invader/agressor. In recent memory of superpowers "meddling with 3rd world messes", USA "lost" in Vietnam, the Russians bugged out of Afghanistan. H*LL, we're now BOTH in Afghanistan AND Iraq. A disaster scenario is all too evident.

I don't know what to say or how to conclude this post. In the Big Picture scenario, USA has already lost..the thing is a political &amp; economic fiasco. Military victory..against a ragged army that's surrendering with no air force? Come on, this is a slaughter. I support the military in a general sense (used appropriately), but I'm definitely against this illegitimate "war". The little people are getting hurt (USA soldiers &amp; Iraqi civilians), while the power-tripping fools (Bush Jr &amp; Hussein) are still running around. First reports of KIAs are coming in &amp; the media is mongering on their poor relatives. Seeing names of KIAs, &amp; their relatives suffering..the impact will last for generations.

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actual photo of a wounded GI taken out on a Dust Off chopper (pilot = Pat Brady, Medal of Honor recipient)


photo of Pat Brady flying into pickup the wounde GI (above)
[ his MOH was awarded when he did like 3 or 4 of these dustoff missions on one day..in FOG..&amp; everyone else wouldn't fly. No wonder Brady became a legend..whew! ]
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TV interviewer:
Pat Brady is a legend..his name is know the length &amp; breadth of the country
What is the philosophy behind your resolve not to stay out of the hottest combat zones?

Pat Brady:
Uh, we feel that..uh that our tail is no more valuable than the next guys

[ "help the people who help you", from offroad racing. Bush Jr got a "free ride" into the National
Guard courtesy of Daddy Bush's connections. As per PBS documentary on Bush Jr's life of free rides,
he &amp; his buddies were laughing about flying jets near the Tx/Mex border chasing cows during 'Nam.
What a LOSER. As bad as pot smokin' Clinton in England at the time, avoided the Draft ]

There's.. 2 schools of thought on it..some people feel that if you take a crew
in a 300,000 dollar aircraft &amp; take it into a hot area..there's a
chance.. that uh.. you lose the crew &amp; the aircraft..
&amp; there may be some good reasoning behind it..but we feel that it's worth a try.
[ Go For Gusto, Go for the Overall! ]
Those people down on the ground (infantry) who are putting their tail on the block for us,
have every right to expect us to do that in return &amp; as along as they ask us, we're gonna go.

[ translation: "sacrifice for your fellow soldier". If Bush Jr thought the "war" was a go, why isn't he there fighting alongside the troops (don't laugh, there are generals who are amongst the troops in the heat of the battle, aka "a soldier's general"), or at least over there for moral support? (hiding out in Camp David, a resort) ]


Note:
I have to emphasize I am a supporter of the American military, they DO provide the *defense* shield for the security of our tender little a**s, so we can do our "freedom thing" with relative security. The *offensive* nature of our self initiated Iraq war is VERY troubling. It's ruining our pristine reputation we earned after WWII.

I am student of WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War. Military hardware &amp; the "Experience of War" (viewpoint of soldier) is a hobby of mine. I was recently at a race shop, where one of the team members told us he was watching the History Channel about the Korean War. Great lessons being taught there.

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Paul Bucha, 101st Airborne (The Screaming Eagles), Medal of Honor recipient
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Paul Bucha:
The thing I..uh prize so much in it is that..
I would hope that.. every child..umm.
when see they... see the medal &amp;.. moreover
when they meet the individuals who are temporary custodians of the medal..uh
&amp; determine that too have it within themselves to serve in a similar
way, that they can they're mom &amp; dad their uncle their cousins, they
they too can serve AND if you believe THAT..
then this medal is something that this country recognizes as extraordinary.
then that would mean in the minds of the young people that they can be
extraordinary &amp; that's what the medal means to me.

It's REALLY that every person in this country... has the potential to
serve the other people in this country..in a most selfless manner. And,
I think that's good.


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actual photo taken from the battle, where Bucha earned the Congressional Medal of Honor
[ note the patch of the 101st Airborne, The Screaming Eagles ]


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"Go for the Gusto, Go for the Overall"
-- Robby Gordon, SCORE off-road champion
 
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I was just reviewing the "Omega Glory" Star Trek episode, & some of the quotes & themes are downright EERIE, in how it is relevant to the current Iraq "war" started by Bush Jr:

- bacteriological warfare
- patriotic symbols & statements
-The Prime Directive ("do not interfere with evolution on another planet [ in this case, a country ]")

Here's the kicker: Omega Glory was written by Gene Roddenberry..an ex-cop!! If there were a way to refute the pro-war camp, it would be the voices of the ex-cops & ex-veterans against "meddling with other countries affairs".


The Omega Glory

"I don't think we have the right or the wisdom to interfere, however a planet is evolving."
... Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..
[ translation: cannot violate the Prime Directive. I.e., don't get caught up in other people's messes/conflicts!! It's not USA responsibility to Save the World, in this case Iraq. Like a journalist from Jordan said: "you cannot impose democracy like the US is trying to do, it's un-democratic". Any historian will tell you "Democracy has to come from within"..that's how USA became such a strong country: It produced the great leaders like Paine, Washington, Jefferson..who formed the mold of what we are (uh...kinda) today. The Iraqi *people* have to rise-up & overthrow Hussein -- it would validate that as a stable platform for a non-Hussein govt.

"We do it the Old Fashioned Way [ rise up ourselves ]..We EARN it [ our freedom ]"
-- old business dude, Smith Barney commercial
]

"A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive. "
... Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..
[ translation: this demonstrates how this FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE cannot be violated. Star Trek was shot during the 60's, this was an obvious reference to USA's meddling in Vietnam..it was a very politically relevant issue! As it is NOW..why can't Bush Jr. see the lessons of history???... as Schlesinger put it "..he [ Bush ] has no understanding of history". H*LL, Bush was a C student @Yale, so I'm not surprised he doesn't know the history, let alone understand it ]

[ Bush Jr or his team of clowns can't even see this obvious/basic principle. H*LL, it's on StarTrek DVD for $10 ...coulda saved US taxpayers tens of billions of dollars ]

"... freedom ... is a worship word... It is our worship word too. "
... Cloud William and Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"...bacteriological warfare...hard to believe we were once foolish enough to play around with that."
... McCoy, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..
[ both USA & Russia have ridded themselves of these Weapons of Mass Destruction, thankfully. ]

"Yes, it is written. Good shall always destroy evil."
... Sirah the Yang, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"Look at these three words written larger than all the rest, and with special pride never written before or since -- tall words, proudly saying "We the people" .. these words and the words that follow ... must apply to everyone or they mean nothing."
... Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

"Liberty and freedom have to be more than just words. "
... Kirk, "The Omega Glory," stardate unknown..

[ all the above patriotic phases have been REVERBERATING throughout race-dezert.com. Unfortunately, the REAL patriot will understand that the *appropriate* thing to do is NOT to start a war..with Iraq..& possibly the ENTIRE Muslim world. It's INSANITY.

Sure, "God Bless America" & go die for your country or send your sons/daughters to die for Bush Jr (idiotic fool). Those "protestors" are the REAL patriots, who understand the "mechanics of going to war" & see the blunder Bush Jr just pulled.

"I was for the Afghanistan deal (going after the 9-11 "terrorists"), but totally against the Iraq thing (North Korea with its nuclear weapons is more of a threat, than the banana republic dictator Hussein)"
-- protestor on 3/22/02, New York City

"... Susan Sonz and her 9-year-old son, Ruben, came to the march from their home near the World Trade Center ground zero site. The boy carried a sign saying, "Ground Zero kids against the war."

"We don't want to see more innocent people die," Sonz said."
-- NYCity protestor from Ground Zero (9-11 attacks), ABCNews, Peace Marchers Rally Across United States
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030323_34.html

[ also

"We support the troops, but we do not support the president," said Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., a Korean War veteran.

One of them, Carolyn Uhlenhake Walker, an elementary school teacher, declared, "I'm a patriot, and I'm offended by people that say we don't love our country." ]

Omega Glory
http://www.trek47.com/tos/epguide/pn54.html
http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/TheOmegaGlory.html



"Go for the Gusto, Go for the Overall"
-- Robby Gordon, SCORE off-road champion
 

drtdevil93

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ya, the iraqis should rise up against saddam without our help just like the germans rose up against Hitler. history lesson? my father and his family came from nazi germany. tell them that they should have risen up against Hitler, and fought it off themselves. this was not possible, it was join the nazis (like a few in my family did) or die a cold death(like the majority of my family did). its hard to revolt when there is a gun to your head. this is why so many liberated iraqis are welcoming us, and are happy to see us.

the "real" patriot is not prefixed on decisions. a real patriot simply takes all available information in, decides what is best for his country, and does what it necessary.

evil with good intentions can destroy evil with bad intentions, and make the world that much safer.

the quotes from most of the protestors seem to be the same. they think "ALL war is wrong", "lets all be friends", "lets hold hands in peace", "we are all detached from reality", "our idealism is overriding our common sense."

"aside from slavery, fascism, nazism and communism, war has never solved everything."

"we wouldnt have had to do that if you wouldve just pulled out of kuwait, but no you had to start those 700 oil fires, and dumped oil in the ocean and poisoned the fish. so [daddy didnt love me] you, eat your poison fish, breath your black air, and kiss my american ass. [daddy didnt love me] YOU!" -sam kinison

erik
 

FABRICATOR

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You obviously have strong feelings about this and are a military historian, but something is missing. What about the causes for war? Are the only causes the taking of land or property? Where and when does the civilian factor in? How many middle-class people just like you and me at work, on vacation, or on business trips must be blown up before military intervention is justified or required? The thousands of American civilians killed over the last few years on our own soil were not collateral damage of some other conflict, they were the target. There have also been countless British and other innocent civilians blown to bits. How many of our civilian citizens were killed before or even during the great World Wars, or any other wars? The only time American civilian deaths should out number military, is when we have been successfully attacked.



<font color=blue>"A Ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are built for"</font color=blue>
 

Vtr_Racing

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I can think of a million reasons why not to go to war. Put our guys in harms way. Usually there are alot fewer reason to make that awful decision to send our people in. I wouldnt want to have to make that call. Additionally, usually critisisms come in droves with no real soulution provided. In my opinion, which doesnt really mean alot, the right decision has been made. Enough is enough. Time for this guy to get out of town. He was given the chance, over and over again. Hussain "chose" his destiny. We can all look back at what should have been done. That really doesnt matter, its what has to be done is what matters now. We have been getting bashed for many years in the USA from our so called friends. I firmly believe that those that were not supporters in our efforts to liberate the country and get rid of this guy, will be very sorry they didnt after everything is said and done.


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.socalmotocross.com/vtrracing//>Vtr Racing.com</A>
 

drtdevil93

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another thing to think about: ww2, what if instead of waiting until the last second to join in, what if we had came in strong in the beginning while the nazi's were somewhat small. when they didnt have large amounts of land we'd have to reclaim. how many lives could have been spared, on both sides? how much destruction could have been avoided? maybe if we were involved before pearl harbor happened, another tragedy could have been avoided. premptive attacks, while they can look brutal and unecessary, can save a whole lot of lives.

erik
 

hoeker

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support our troops and OUR president, or GO HOME!!


Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
 

JrSyko

Jerry Maguire
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Fabricator,
I agree with what you are saying, but you have to admit that this war is not going to end the civilian attacks. If anything, it could spur more attacks as it serves to ignite the hatred against us.

I will and do support our troops 110%, it is the President that I have serious second thoughts about so I guess its a good thing I'm already home........

See ya in the dirt!
 

hoeker

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jr. your ambition, and knowledge in this matter is quite amazing, i have read all your posts, and while i admit you may read the world news more than me, i am dissappointed in your tenacity in your course. this country is built on many freedoms, including the freedom of speech. this is the freedom that gives you the right to second guess our president and his hundreds of advisors. i do however feel disgusted with all the americans that think that protesting is the right thing to do at this point, 1 week ago was a different story, i month from now may be different again. 12 years ago the american people would not have tolerated making saddam a target in the war, the goal was to get iraq out of kuwait, and that is what we did. in the weeks after 9/11 america wanted protection to make sure all our freedoms were not taken advantage of again. saddam supports terrorism, you yourself admitted that. why now can't you say that while you don't support war, you support the american way of life, admit that our president is much more informed to the dangers that saddam presents, and are willing to stand by the government that we elected. that is what this is about! the silent majority af the world are please that we have decided to do the dirty work and get this fanatical tyrant out of power, the world will be better off, and while many countries were reluctant to show support, about 45 countries have now pledged allegiance to the coalition goals. you may say this is silly, they got on the wagon after the war, but they are just like the people in iraq, scared to death of this tyrant. they are not going to lay their head on the block, even with the US in the room, they just don't dare. now that the course is set, they know saddam is no longer an issue, they know what is right, and are doing what they can to support us. you are right, this war may spur some more civilian attacks, but at least we are taking the training grounds away from some of the biggest bullies on the block. saddam sponsored terrorists, now the world knows what will happen if you sponosr terroism, the world will not tolerate it. GWB vowed to route out terrorism from the world, and we supported him 100% in the months after 9/11. now the time has come for america to be the security guard, and we are providing world security, it will come at a cost, and while the cost is great, we all enjoy the results. none of us want to live in the fear some people of the world live in, it could be amazing what the world is like after this threat has been eliminated. and protest or not, it will be eliminated.

america tried isolationism in the past, we did not get involved in WW2 because we were bullies, we were bullied into the game, and came out being a world power, now we are what the world forced us into being, the big kid on the block. we will mind our own buisiness, but they came on our soil on 9/11, they killed our friends, they killed our neighbors, they threatend our way of life. i for one am glad that there are enough americans left that are willing to fight for the freedoms you and i enjoy on a daily basis.

now is the time to rally our friends and neighbors to support our troops and our government, because they are fighting for our way of life.

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
 

hoeker

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should've changed this sooner.

don't just live in america, live american!!

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
 
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