Pressurized Fuel rigs? Good idea or disaster waiting to happen?

BANNED4LIFE

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Seems to me after reading this thread that the problem lies not in the technology but within the individuals who are operating it. Wouldn't it make sense that if using any of these systems, each member of a team responsible for the fueling should be certified to operate the equipment as well as wear all of the proper gear to help prevent injury? I f'n hate new rules and new regulations and all that but this fueling stuff is a ticking time bomb of sorts.

I have seen and have been a part of some extremely sketching fueling situations, most all were with dump cans.
you are SPOT on, the pressure pro, and other pressurized systems work PERFECTLY in the laboratory .im sure 100%, but in the real world all the variables come into play......
 

ndvalium

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andy, you are mistaken, the "pressure pro" has NO bearing on my opinion, pressurized fueling in general is MORE dangerous and is UNNESSSISARY .....the vid of TEAM MICMILLION at the baja 1000 says it all doesnt it??? "that was CRAZY" from the team member shooting the video.....if the richest/most experienced team cant seem to get it right after YEARS of experience, what does that tell us????? VOLUNTEERS getting burned up isnt going to be cool.....look how many could of gotten hurt in the latest sf TT/pressurepro FIRE...



7 dumpcans into a truck ALWAYS has spillage, ALWAYS.....a GRAVITY fed tower filling 70 gallons has a tablespoon of spillage when you remove the drybreak nozzle.....gravity fed tower does NOT have 15psi and spray out a pressurized mist of fuel with the nozzle is removed like a pressurized system does........from my 35 years of experience in offroad racing i KNOW that my tower setup is MUCH safer then dumpcans and spills LITTLE or NO fuel.......dumpcans are ALWAYS a mess, gas on the car, gas on the occupants, gas on the ground, drivers HITTING the dumpcans ect ect, IVE SEEN IT MANY MANY times.....

Pete, while SCORE and other orgs can do what they choose, that is one of the key points to the new BITD rule. Mandatory pop off valve at 10 PSI on pressure systems which is similar in PSI to a tower loaded with 100 gallons of fuel 12 feet in the air. Its a start to positive change.

And dumpcans will be effected as well in the near future with BITD for crew protection standards.

Dave
 

BANNED4LIFE

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Pete, while SCORE and other orgs can do what they choose, that is one of the key points to the new BITD rule. Mandatory pop off valve at 10 PSI on pressure systems which is similar in PSI to a tower loaded with 100 gallons of fuel 12 feet in the air. Its a start to positive change.

And dumpcans will be effected as well in the near future with BITD for crew protection standards.

Dave
I LIKE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING......KEEP IT UP.......i look forward to your inspection of my and other systems like mine so they can be implemented into the rules.....mine is NOT as fast as some of the others but i will eat 10-15 seconds to stay futher away from DISASTER......
 

CRAIG_HALL

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How about BITD had a mandatory meeting and has Fuelsafe/Redhead put on a proper safety demonstration of the different types of fueling.
 

ndvalium

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How about BITD had a mandatory meeting and has Fuelsafe/Redhead put on a proper safety demonstration of the different types of fueling.
I like that Craig - I will see if that is something we can add into the classes we are talking about for extinguisher use - maybe a broader range subject matter on the entire process with several of the key experts we have in our industry would be more effective.
 

Bro_Gill

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You sound like you know what you are talking about. However I have always thought that small hose would make more pressure. If you have a 3" hose then put a nozzle on it that is "2 diameter that will create more pressure right?


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No, in the sense that gravity never changes, Drop a brick and a ping pong ball from the same height and they hit the ground at the same time. Water falls at the same rate. Thinking of it in a different way, how much pressure must be exerted to move a gallon of water up a hose 100 feet in elevation gain? 43psi in the hose. Move it 10 feet- 4.3 psi. Up or down, the number remains the same. That gives you -0- psi at the outlet. Reducing the size of a opening doesn't increase pressure, it changes the dynamic of the outlet. Seems like more pressure, but it is just more volume out of a smaller hole. Pressure is the same.
 

CRAIG_HALL

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No one is ever taught "proper" fueling from a professional or those that sell the equipment. If we can't teach a driver how to race, the least we can do is teach him and his team how to reduce the risk of injuring someone.
 

Bro_Gill

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SCCA regs do not allow fueling in the hot pits, vehicles must be taken to paddock, then occupants must exit and engine shut down before fueling can commence.

A question for BG(and any others who may have an answer): How can a team ground and bond dump can and vehicle?

Ever seen it done?
Have a ground spike already in the ground at your fueling location. conducting cable with a clamp(think jumper cables here to make it easy) attached to ground spike and then to cage of vehicle when it stops. Touch nozzle of fueling device to filler neck prior to flowing fuel and you have completed the ground through the system. Go to Home Depot and get a copper rod like they use for home grounding through the cable and power systems. Everyone at a pit should have jumper cables.
 

coilover88

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Have a ground spike already in the ground at your fueling location. conducting cable with a clamp(think jumper cables here to make it easy) attached to ground spike and then to cage of vehicle when it stops. Touch nozzle of fueling device to filler neck prior to flowing fuel and you have completed the ground through the system. Go to Home Depot and get a copper rod like they use for home grounding through the cable and power systems. Everyone at a pit should have jumper cables.
Your comment brings to mind how systematic the USAF is about their approach to fueling aircraft.

1. The fuel truck is grounded by cable at the acft location.
2. The truck is grounded to the acft
3. The fuel probe is grounded to the acft prior to insertion.

Done in this order, the chance of an errant spark is on the order of an "Act of God". I would think that prepping a fueling station with such capability would be small peanuts in the larger picture. Just my $.02.
 

DanMcMillin

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andy, you are mistaken, the "pressure pro" has NO bearing on my opinion, pressurized fueling in general is MORE dangerous and is UNNESSSISARY .....the vid of TEAM MICMILLION at the baja 1000 says it all doesnt it??? "that was CRAZY" from the team member shooting the video.....if the richest/most experienced team cant seem to get it right after YEARS of experience, what does that tell us????? VOLUNTEERS getting burned up isnt going to be cool.....look how many could of gotten hurt in the latest sf TT/pressurepro FIRE...
We get it, you don't like the Pressure Pros. That's fine. But they are no more or less dangerous than a fueling tower. Our volunteers who do our fueling, that is all they do, and have been doing for the several years they have been coming to help pit for us. They know the system. They are comfortable with it, and we have pit practices before every race. Vince from American Tanks is extremely savvy on theses tanks and the physics behind the system, and we are always working with him on how to make the tanks safer. He posted on here once to try to explain how they work and why they are very safe with the right people operating them, but it wasted his time. I wonder why. If you think the tower is safer than the Pressure Pro, that's your opinion. Cameron Steele is very big on safety, and he has a Pressure Pro. Nothing is perfect. Accidents happen. Fueling is dangerous, but I trust the Pressure Pros, Vince, and our fueling team. I would trust a fueling tower and even a dump can too, with the right people doing it. We take racing very seriously, and our pitting is no different.
 

CRAIG_HALL

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Pete, there's a big difference between stating your opinion on what you use for fueling and talking chit about what other respectable teams use. No need to be a dick.

Now please kindly, STFU.
 

Offspring

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Luke, Dan or Andy,

Was PP consulted during the construction of the truck in that video?
 

BANNED4LIFE

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Pete, there's a big difference between stating your opinion on what you use for fueling and talking chit about what other respectable teams use. No need to be a dick.

Now please kindly, STFU.
talking chit???? FACTS, watch the video, DUH......IT FAILED MISERABLY......THEY ARE PAID TO SAY HOW GREAT IT IS!!!!...... and it isnt.....its DANGEROUS....they get paid to say how safe it is, i dont get paid to say how unsafe it is.....the odds of me being right is WAY higher then being wrong, there WILL be another pressurized fueling accident, i assure you......it is NOT a necessity to make our sport great....... and for the record, i DONT dislike the mcmils, any of them....
 
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1450-ranger

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A 15 ft tower is creating about 5 PSI at the race car. However, one good thing bout the fuel tower is the pressure is decreasing at a constant rate as the vehicle is fueled (rate varies on fuel tower geometry). The deadman valve should be used to throttle the flow to zero as the fueler pulls off the race car. How much pressure are these pressure fuel rigs operating at? Are there any features to where the pressure can be throttled as fueling ends?

For the non-engineering types, here's a link on hydrostatic pressure. Keep in mind gasoline is 75%-80% the density of water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html
 

johnnyweb

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talking chit???? FACTS, watch the video, DUH......IT FAILED MISERABLY......THEY ARE PAID TO SAY HOW GREAT IT IS!!!!...... and it isnt.....its DANGEROUS....they get paid to say how safe it is, i dont get paid to say how unsafe it is.....the odds of me being right is WAY higher then being wrong, there WILL be another pressurized fueling accident, i assure you......it is NOT a necessity to make our sport great...
Yep it failed that time. Did they learn from it and change things around since then and cure the problem? yes according to there statement it has been tested many times since and it is all good know.

I would imagine that is how your system got to be so perfect?

You do admit that the fuel tower is putting pressure in the fuel tank as it fills? no different then the Pressure Pro It is just approx 5psi depending on the height instead of 10psi as the Pressure Pro is limited to know.

I am ok with the new rules Ya I will have to buy some more fire suits and head socks but it wont kill me only make things safer for the crew guys.

Either way it does not matter Pressure Pro's are here to stay and I believe are just as dangerous as Fuel Towers in the wrong hands. I believe it is a good thing we all are learning here regarding fueling. Well some of us anyway, some people already know it all.
 

BANNED4LIFE

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A 15 ft tower is creating about 5 PSI at the race car. However, one good thing bout the fuel tower is the pressure is decreasing at a constant rate as the vehicle is fueled (rate varies on fuel tower geometry). The deadman valve should be used to throttle the flow to zero as the fueler pulls off the race car. How much pressure are these pressure fuel rigs operating at? Are there any features to where the pressure can be throttled as fueling ends?

For the non-engineering types, here's a link on hydrostatic pressure. Keep in mind gasoline is 75%-80% the density of water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html
i have never seen a 15 tall tower??? is there such a thing??? mine is 6', tops.....obviously i must have much less pressure...
 

DanMcMillin

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Yeah, we don't get paid to talk about the Pressure Pro.
 

Zambo

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A 15 ft tower is creating about 5 PSI at the race car. However, one good thing bout the fuel tower is the pressure is decreasing at a constant rate as the vehicle is fueled (rate varies on fuel tower geometry). The deadman valve should be used to throttle the flow to zero as the fueler pulls off the race car. How much pressure are these pressure fuel rigs operating at? Are there any features to where the pressure can be throttled as fueling ends?

For the non-engineering types, here's a link on hydrostatic pressure. Keep in mind gasoline is 75%-80% the density of water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html
Maybe I am mis-remembering what was going on when the pressure fuelers first came about. Basically, one of the safety benefits of running such a system was that you wouldn't have to erect a tall tower and pump fuel up to it, then defuel it and take the whole thing down. The elimination of that practice would by itself increase safety.

I think I remember during that time the original concern about pumping fuel with pressure was alleviated somewhat by the fact that the pressure pro was only using 4-6psi, which is roughly the same, maybe slightly higher, than the head pressure from a dump tower hose. But still very low. Should produce roughly the same rate of fuel transfer as a dump tower. Since there was no performance advantage, the only reason to spend the extra money was the convenience and simplicity of the operation.

Predictably, folks started asking what happens when guys start pumping up the pressure to try and gain an advantage (racers doing what racers are gonna do). Sure enough, it seems like folks are talking these days about how they can fuel their cars twice as fast with the PP dialed up to 12 or 13 psi...28 seconds to fill a 100+ gallon tank. Strange that all of a sudden normal methods of venting a tank that is being fueled are no longer adequate, and now tanks and vents need to be built a certain way in order to handle that kind of flow.

So is my memory fuzzy or is that pretty much how it went down and where we sit now?
 

BANNED4LIFE

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Yeah, we don't get paid to talk about the Pressure Pro.
well luke CALLED me monday and told me that you did.......why would HE tell me that if it wasnt true???
 

LukeMcMillin

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well luke CALLED me monday and told me that you did.......why would HE tell me that if it wasnt true???

Pete, you are out of control buddy... I told you Vince is a good friend/volunteer of ours that has helped us out for many years.... Not sure where you got "PAID" from?? Of course you were busy yelling at the top of your lungs...

LOL YOU'VE LOST YOUR MIND! Goodbye now....
 
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