Pressurized fueling accident (Crickets...)

Dave Cole 4454

KING MAKER
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Dave, have you notified your carrier that you will be allowing pressurized fuel at your events? Real question. I know that when ever I got insurance for just about anything, they wanted to know many things about me, what I was doing, what my profession was, etc... And sometimes they decided I wasn't worth the risk to them because of the answers. And many times over the years of responding to incidents where people were doing things that they did not inform their carrier about, guess what happened when an incident happened?
Have you bumped your head? Yes. We have a full ops plan. Yes, our insurance has audited our ability to execute that plan.

I will be sitting this one out from now on.

The subject matter is worthy of discussion.

The fear mongering, fake internet drama, keyboard warrior crap is a waste of time.

There should be some test like a breathalyzer on a car before you can type on RDC or anywhere for that matter. If you spend more time online TALKING about being in the dirt than actually BEING on the dirt your posting should be limited to Reddit.

Out
 

MTPyle

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JPrich,

Thanks for clearing that up. Not sure where I heard that, I think it was one of the Martellis that said that on the live fead or an interview.

Couple more points-

We paid extra for a new PP so we could get proper training and a new system that we knew where it had been. I paid a couple thousand more to get the years of experience and training directly from Vince. The cost of the PP is not just the parts, its the knowledge that Vince has, thats what we bought and received. We could have bought used but it would not come with Vince.

The PP is a tool just like a firearm. It needs to be used properly. I would never hand a firearm over to my son without proper training and respect.

As we talk about insurance or regulation keep in mind that both do not make decisions on outlier cases. Its not a trend when one out of 200 cases has an operator induced failure. Insurance companies look not only at possible risk but when they have the data they use that. They ignore outliers. And if there is a trend of operator failures they tend to require training.

I am not sure if some of the negative comments about PP are due to budget. I know my first impression of the PP was its too expensive and we could not afford it. But then I realized we could not afford to not have it, safety won. I think Pete was more pissed about the cost than the actual safety concerns. He didn't want teams to have an advantage that was bought. But thats racing. I only say this from reading his post. I do not know Pete, only met him once.

Mike

Edit- Dave I may have to move to Reddit, LOL pretty sure I am on here more than I race. I wish that was not true, but I have to get my fix somewhere. That being said I need to get to the shop and help the boys get the truck ready for next week. We still have not fired up the new engine or tested the truck and we are less than a week away. Haha.
 

Bro_Gill

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Have you bumped your head? Yes. We have a full ops plan. Yes, our insurance has audited our ability to execute that plan.

I will be sitting this one out from now on.

The subject matter is worthy of discussion.

The fear mongering, fake internet drama, keyboard warrior crap is a waste of time.

There should be some test like a breathalyzer on a car before you can type on RDC or anywhere for that matter. If you spend more time online TALKING about being in the dirt than actually BEING on the dirt your posting should be limited to Reddit.

Out
Glad to see such professionalism from a promoter here. Must be nice to only plan for the best and never worry about the worst. In my professional world, it was plan for the worst and hope for the best. Fear mongering isn't a discussion about what just happened. Better work on that a bit.
 

ndvalium

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In my conversation with Vince, the upgrades will be provided to all 240 Pressure Pro units. Vince himself will be at many races as he has been regularly ensuring proper use.

My team will get educated directly from Vince as well and perform routine /random checks at the races we serve.

Best in the Desert is also implementing a Safety Committee over the fall with Tech people, safety people, operations people and hopefully some experienced racers and crew chiefs. Decision making being able to be done by informed and not knee jerk reactions.

While I appreciate all the spirited discussion from all the experts and others, This sure has gone on and on without any real purpose.
 

MTPyle

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David

Most of the threads on RDC go on and on with no purpose. Haha. Well I guess there is one common purpose, entertainment. Hehe

Pretty much how my wife and I argue, after awhile we don’t even remember what we started arguing about in the first place.
Mike
 

calstyl2

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Have you bumped your head? Yes. We have a full ops plan. Yes, our insurance has audited our ability to execute that plan.

I will be sitting this one out from now on.

The subject matter is worthy of discussion.

The fear mongering, fake internet drama, keyboard warrior crap is a waste of time.

There should be some test like a breathalyzer on a car before you can type on RDC or anywhere for that matter. If you spend more time online TALKING about being in the dirt than actually BEING on the dirt your posting should be limited to Reddit.

Out
Dave
Martin is the biggest expert he knows, dont mind him.
 

critter81

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OK I have read every post on here and no one has explained WHY in technical terms the PP is safer than a fuel tower... In technical terms, why is PP safer?
 

Bro_Gill

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OK I have read every post on here and no one has explained WHY in technical terms the PP is safer than a fuel tower... In technical terms, why is PP safer?
It doesn't matter. This genie has left the bottle and no one is gonna fix that.
 

calstyl2

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For the racing side, D-37, SCORE, KOH and BITD rescue and medical responder/coordinator over the years, Ive seen each series pros and cons. And been involved in many major racing issues, not just RDC drama
 

jon coleman

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i think MTP stated the big hassle/ potential danger is not really in the actual fueling of race car,but in the fuel towers set up, fueling of tower, moving from pit to pit, the pp is always ready to go, easy to pit2pit, fuel stays put in pp
 

Robin Hood

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If you can't train your crew to handle dump cans safely...then they probably shouldn't be handling 200 gallons of pressurized fuel.
 

MTPyle

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Robin Hood

it’s not about how you handle the dump cans that make them dangerous. It’s the way they vent that’s the problem. When they heat up and are full they push fuel out the vent, even if not totally full. So then you have to use a zip tie to hold the red head open to vent out the top. If they fall over they spill and even if they don’t you have fuel vapors in your truck or trailer. Also with dump cans you are transferring fuel from 55 gallon drums to the dump cans before or after a pit. So that opens up a entire other level of risk. Lots can go wrong. It takes a lot of dump cans to fill a full size truck.

And the argument that it’s ok if you have a problem with a dump can because it’s only 11 gallons is laughable. 11 gallon fire or explosion is still a big deal.

the PP is sealed with CO2. No fumes in your truck and it can’t spill. And no need to transfer fuel mid race.

I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over, and I am not even drunk. Haha.

Mike
 

MTPyle

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Not that I am an expert but we did go from dump cans with open fillers, to dump cans with dry breaks , to a fuel tower, and then PP all in about a season and a half. So I am one of the few that have experience with all 4 fueling systems.

In my opinion of all those systems the PP is the safest by far. So I will leave it at that.

Mike
 

Robin Hood

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Robin Hood

it’s not about how you handle the dump cans that make them dangerous. It’s the way they vent that’s the problem.

Mike
Mike,

:rolleyes:If I solve this one issue for you, will you switch back to dump cans?

I understand the pressure and venting issues with dump cans. It is actually more of an issue, the lower the fuel level is, in the dump can. It is the air expanding above the fuel, not the fuel that creates the pressure. More air=greater increase in pressure, which is what pushes the fuel out the vent. With this simple understanding of the issue, it would be an easy fix, to vent the fill line, to solve this issues, instead of using a zip tie.

Also, dump cans should really never be transported full. This is really where the issue comes in isn't it. The dump cans and fuel tower take time to fill. It is not a big deal to have an electric pump and fill 10 dump cans at each pit. If your guys can fill there car or spare gas can at the gas station, then I am sure they can do this without spilling fuel. If you put the same protocols and training into using dump cans and the associations mandated some pit rules regarding their use, there could be little to no fuel spilled during fueling with dump cans.

Only 11 gallons is laughable? Mike, what happens when there is a flash fire while you are fueling with a PP? What does everyone do? They "run", like "rabbits they run". What will happen if your dead man guy runs and doesn't shut off the valve. Is he in full fire protection and willing to stand there? How far away is the PP set up? Do you think the fueler will carefully drag the hose to safety, so it doesn't get dropped and burn, releasing the balance of the load of fuel from the PP? Does your driver and co-driver get out in time as gallons of fuel spill under the truck that no one can get to, to help them out. How about those (4) fire extinguishers? Who is manning those now and how far away are they? How does 11 gallons compare to 200 in this situation?

You are assuming that since there hasn't been an issue there won't be and they are safe. You are over looking how bad this situation can get, really quick. I haven't wrecked a race car in 20 years, is that a long enough track record for me to take yours for a spin. What could go wrong? Since I am trained, experianced and have a clean record, we will just ignore the outlier risk ;)
 
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