Pressurized fueling accident (Crickets...)

MTPyle

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yes I am for sure beating a dead horse. Its not just that you beat the horse but you have to know how. I have refined the art of beating a dead horse for many years, pretty dang good at it now. LOL

But its been a fun 20 pages. Haha

Mike
 

jon coleman

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did anyone mention yet that its All going electric soon Anyways??( they did?,) not only do I beat dead horses, ill dig them up and make sure to beat some more
 

JDDurfey

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yes I am for sure beating a dead horse. Its not just that you beat the horse but you have to know how. I have refined the art of beating a dead horse for many years, pretty dang good at it now. LOL

But its been a fun 20 pages. Haha

Mike
I was not just referring to you with that post...the same things have been stated numerous times during this "debate".
 

johndjmix

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How many cars fuel at a gas station in a given month? How many fires / explosions at that station per month?

Exactly.

Thinking backwards to the simple task of the soccer mom fueling her suv...in a miniskirt with no fire protection. Usually not at issue. Why?


Think of the issue from the systems that work and ramp up rather than trying to solve by ramping down a very limited used system.

—job.
 

Rslhc

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I think we found the answer. We have someone create gas stations in the desert, one way only, and have regular pumps full of race gas and trucks just line up to get filled. No transporting fuel, no PP to explode, to dump cans to leak. Just remember not to top off. lol

I’m sure COSTCO would be all over this since the lines would basically what their stations are like anyways. 🤣

Not dissing John above, just came to mind in the theme of dead horse beating.

Edit: we have 9 more pages of this before we get to the amount of unproductive debate as we had in the 2014 thread.
 

Honda48X

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i keep hearing about the Deadman and I’m wondering if anyone actually know the definition of a deadman. Not sure if Vince actually knows what one is. Next time you are at an airport and see the commercial aircraft being fueled you will see the fueler holding a deadman switch. If the fueler let’s go of the switch fuel stops immediately. What people describe on here is a person when told or on his own turns a valve. That is not a deadman.
 

masleca

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Honda,
I started writing a nasty reply, in true RDC fashion :), but realized that is why all of these threads are such a waste of time. People spouting off from behind their keyboard and blurting out the 1st thing that comes to mind. I always lurk and laugh, but ultimately refrain from replying......but against my better judgement (and a temporary loss of will power) :
Please rest assured that Vince knows exactly what a "Deadman" Valve/Switch is.
Please rest assured that all of the Qualified People that operate a PP know exactly what a Deadman is and how it operates.
As in all other applications, the Deadman on a PP has to be held Open.
All of the Qualified Operators of PP's in the Desert would like to thank you all for the insightful critiques and real world Fireman commentary.
Can we get back to fueling by the method of our choice please ?.......yes I will wear a Mask !!!!
 

jon coleman

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I think we found the answer. We have someone create gas stations in the desert, one way only, and have regular pumps full of race gas and trucks just line up to get filled. No transporting fuel, no PP to explode, to dump cans to leak. Just remember not to top off. lol

I’m sure COSTCO would be all over this since the lines would basically what their stations are like anyways. 🤣

Not dissing John above, just came to mind in the theme of dead horse beating.

Edit: we have 9 more pages of this before we get to the amount of unproductive debate as we had in the 2014 thread.
will RG demand a station attendent' check under the hood'??, and fill the windshield washer bottle??
 

Zambo

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Maybe somebody who has been around desert racing longer than me can explain why we don't just pump fuel into the vehicles the same way we fill our cars at the gas station or fill farm equipment in the field? Seems to me that whether you're using dump cans, fuel towers, or a PP, you gotta pump the fuel from the drum or other container into the fueling device anyway. Why not skip the middle man and just pump the fuel right into the race vehicle? Yes I understand that a 20gpm pump is going to take several minutes to fuel up a TT. So what? If everybody is using the same method what is the difference? Plus, modern tracking devices make it pretty simple to have a pit area that is transited 'off the clock' so that teams can't get ahead by fueling faster than the other teams (within reason). Do we really need fast pit stops to be part of the race? Are there any other forms of motorsport where fuel stops happen on the clock and the pit crews are comprised of amateurs and volunteers?
 

partybarge_pilot

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I have seen a truck fueled that way but with 2 pumps going. Took under 2 min to fill. Never took the drums out of the truck. Draining the hoses afterwards was the only hard part.
 

Murray Rothbard

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Did the Wright brothers have a pilots license? FAA clearance? Innovation & therefore safety come from permission-less products like PP.

a committee never started a successful company. A camel is nothing more than a horse designed by committee, which is what NASCAR F1 & American life have become. We will all be living in Baja soon to enjoy steak & sound of V8 engine.
 

jon coleman

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Did the Wright brothers have a pilots license? FAA clearance? Innovation & therefore safety come from permission-less products like PP.

a committee never started a successful company. A camel is nothing more than a horse designed by committee, which is what NASCAR F1 & American life have become. We will all be living in Baja soon to enjoy steak & sound of V8 engine.
and the reversed engineering of the big beautiful wall will be a booger, your right, Baja will be the sanctuary in the future when Off the grid will be a way of life
 

ACME

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MTPyle: In response to your comments on my post I'll play:

-If you read the original thread that I posted a link to from 2014: MOST of the concerns were about safety and a secondary thought was an equal sand box. Toss out the competitive advantage comments and the thread is primarily focused on safety, just as this one has been.

-If pressurized fueling practices are so safe: Why have they been banned across most other forms of motorsports where the pits are in controlled environments, where they have professional trained people, standardized practices, standardized safety gear for all pitters and not just fuelers, oversight and markedly better safety practices and response systems? Quick answer: The risk is not worth it. Long answer: Knowing the cost of a PP to a F1, GTP, Nascar, INDY car or other such program isn't a factor, there must be another reason they have not allowed this "safer option": It's because of the incidents where it has been used by aforementioned teams in controlled environments and it's simply not worth the risk.

-I appreciate the fact that you take this system seriously an have history with a number of different fueling options as well as experience with a vehicle fire. But for everyone like you that does take this serious, there are 3-4 that don't. And the bigger the team: The more likely the "owner" isn't involved and depends on others to "handle it". The likelihood of my scenario of having untrained personnel involved, or someone fiddle with it as in the recent incident, is way more possible when the owner isn't personally involved in every aspect of the racing or if the owner is a Dillhole. Then toss in the human factor + adrenaline and common sense is proven to go out the window as shown in the videos that have been posted on this topic.

-Your comment: "I would say if anyone is not comfortable being around a PP then don’t be. Your choice." doesn't answer the root question I had which I had and let me make it clearer...:
3) So YOUR TEAM pulls into a pit and starts setting up one of these right next to someone else pit in Baja, Parker or Barstow:
A) How do they know if that system was updated and/or has been maintained BY THAT TEAM? B) How do we/they know the operators: YOUR GUYS or THOSE GUYS are properly trained? (again volunteers in a hobby sport see 2)And who is responsible if an incident happens as responsibility will be a very real thing if a major incident ever happens.

Now you've decided and made the choice for others. 90% of those other pits might not even see the system and/or have a choice in the matter of working in proximity to it. What if a pit at Midway, who set up there the night before or early that AM to pit for 2 heats and have your guys roll in after they have set up; and all the spots are now taken? What if it's in a box truck or around the corner etc... or an event dictates a pit space or stall?? What if your in Borrego and pitted next to BFG and Team X rolls into the ribboned off area next to you with one??? Or as has happened to me in Parker: You set up a pit with 60' of banners the week before for you and your 2 buddies cars, then you roll in Thursday to find that the Dillhole's next to you moved your banners over 30' to make room so their Toterhome/40' trailer can go sideways and the 2 motorhomes can have a front row view and they now occupy 100' pit of space for their 1 truck and you have 3 cars stuffed into 30'????

Now what if that guy or your guys, or those guys and possibly an untrained person sets up a system. How does your: "I would say if anyone is not comfortable being around a PP then don’t be. Your choice." work? Then what if unlike your guys, some untrained or even a trained fool decides to turn up the pressure to help out or desn't know? Or what it accidently got dropped off the forklift while some guy was unloading it for the boss in the yard after the last race? Or if the regulator stuck and no one mentioned it in the heat of battle after the last race??? Now it's not their choice to be near it, and your or that other persons decision or mistake seemingly has a lot more potential for a significant incident than a bad red head on a fuel tower, or a split dump can.

PS that TT guy that moved our stuff was a big money, chasing a dream, baller racer that has since come and gone but had all the stuff including 3-4 chase trucks with fuel towers, box trucks etc so I'm guessing if his guys said PP's we're the shiat, he would have bought a few and then depended on others to "make it happen" and I know how much they respected others...

-As for comparing the MINT and the best case in BITD to all the other races is not valid. I've been to BITD races and seen stupidity in the pits and fueling practices happen in Midway, Graham Wells & Primm. Now move into Baja and into a scenario with multiple pit locations and thinner resources and the likelihood of my scenario of untrained personnel is even more realistic.

-Your FAA comment was interesting and I had to google it but it seems the FAA does in fact care about licensing pilots per wiki: Pilot certification in the United States - Wikipedia

I look forward to the response
 

MTPyle

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Acme,

My FAA comment was directed towards insurance. I have a Twin engine rating and as far as the FAA is concerned I can fly any twin engine aircraft that does not require a type rating. But I can’t get insurance unless I take a make and model initial training course. My Point is that the government is pretty open with the rules but the insurance companies are not.

The rest of the points have been argued enough. Comparing NASCAR or Formula 1 to desert racing is a waste of time. The fact that we set up and tear down pits in a hurry is what adds the extra risk. I agree on a fixed pit a tower may be the best option. Or even a pumped fuel option would work.

I was mostly being a smart a$$ on the don’t use one or be next to one if you don’t want to comment. I really wanted to bring our PP to Parker so I could put up some big signs that say “stay away this thing can blow at any minute, danger” haha. So maybe now we won’t get people crowding our pits.

the reality is education is key and I think that’s up to the racing orgs to work out. BITD rules already say all PP systems have to be approved. So they are already trying to make sure each team knows what they are doing. I had to go thru a process to get our fuel cell approved by BITD when we made the change. So it’s not like everyone is just looking the other way.

Mike
 

jon coleman

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Acme,

My FAA comment was directed towards insurance. I have a Twin engine rating and as far as the FAA is concerned I can fly any twin engine aircraft that does not require a type rating. But I can’t get insurance unless I take a make and model initial training course. My Point is that the government is pretty open with the rules but the insurance companies are not.

The rest of the points have been argued enough. Comparing NASCAR or Formula 1 to desert racing is a waste of time. The fact that we set up and tear down pits in a hurry is what adds the extra risk. I agree on a fixed pit a tower may be the best option. Or even a pumped fuel option would work.

I was mostly being a smart a$$ on the don’t use one or be next to one if you don’t want to comment. I really wanted to bring our PP to Parker so I could put up some big signs that say “stay away this thing can blow at any minute, danger” haha. So maybe now we won’t get people crowding our pits.

the reality is education is key and I think that’s up to the racing orgs to work out. BITD rules already say all PP systems have to be approved. So they are already trying to make sure each team knows what they are doing. I had to go thru a process to get our fuel cell approved by BITD when we made the change. So it’s not like everyone is just looking the other way.

Mike
pp teams should get a designated area for pitting, makes sense rDc?
 

green787

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I had no idea how big they were until I watched the video..... They are too big and have too much non re-inforced surface area to ever think about pressurizing ....... sure 15lbs..... MAYBE 25psi ..... But it's too easy to over pressurize them with C02 bottles with what??? 500psi??? IDK..., and a novice might even think they are helping it work better by over pressuring it......Isn't that how the guy got hurt was because the tank ruptured and injured him from exploding.... not a gas explosion, but a pressure explosion.... shrapnel..... I thought they were the size of maybe a 50 gallon air compressor tank..... How do you lift the PP out of the truck without a crane.... ??? I think they can be made safer with a catastrophic relief device..... Like I said with a rubber cork for a fuel cap...... Some device that blows off and renders the PP useless until it is repaired..... Dummy proof..... If I was Vince I would want it to have to be brought back to the manufacturer to be inspected and reset, and then retrain the owner......
 
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