Pressurized fueling accident (Crickets...)

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Posts
12,612
Reaction
7,681
There would be a easy way to solve this, but I think some minds would be pissed that someone fixed their perfect problem. So how about this? Maximum fuel cell size is 50 gallons for any class. It seems the folks who think these things walk on water will never agree that they can be dangerous and those that follow other forms of racing have figured out that the wild west attitude IS going to get others killed in this sport because no one wants a 'rule' that bans dangerous actions, so how about making the idea of dumping 100 gallons of fuel with pressure in less than a minute obsolete?
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
Is there any doubt that fueling w drivers out is the safest ? Any doubt that a min fueling time would also rate as very safe ? Enforcement would be very simple if only everyone had a phone w a camera !
so what is the argument against doing the most simple, most safe ,most enforceable and by far the cheapest option ?
gotta write safety manuals in red, unfortunately
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
Baja is its own wild beast that no one wants to change . But races in Cali and Nevada could. It would affect race stradegies evenly. I can’t imagine the implications if a big firey chit show happens in front of the BLM at a race up here.
especially if onlookers get hurt, even observer's in that brenthal video filming are too close, & lady at drivers door only t shirt on is in harms way, just looks like a matter of time rolling dice
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
I had

I had this idea 4 Years ago. We picked events that we had access to meeting areas and came up with several class ideas we wanted to share with off road. One was specifically fuel related discussing all the types and things to look for. Even had a few of the fuel experts on board to talk about it.

We started with a fire extinguisher training course at Parker and had 6 or 8 people show up. The response I got from many teams was they are all to busy on tech days.

We wanted to implement a rolling option of classes including:

fuel safety

stop the bleed

fire extinguishers

basic first aid and cpr

We were also looking to expand it for other classes for race volunteers for things like effective flag communication, and safety around race courses.

We also had a few companies and teams that were willing to offer swag to people that attended.

I will make an effort to start this again if there is an interest for team members free of charge To teams for the 2021 season.
5 bonus points for year end championship for teams that attend
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
The channel for the sight tube is the weak link, it needs to be a simple cylinder shape. Lots of stuff sticking out of the top with not much protection for all of them.

The sight tube could still be installed but with a "shield" of some sort covering it.





And maybe three hose clamps on each end instead of just two.

#notanengineer
simple scale will tell you how much juice is left after filling
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
A good fast pit crew is an advantage racing and can mean the difference between winning and loosing. If you have a insightful pit crew you will loose minutes at the end of the day.

Fast pit stops is a part of racing culture if its to dangerous for you than stay home and watch a bunch of entitled bitches through a ball and and slap each other ass's all the while bitching they are some how repressed.
golf??
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
Posts
7,261
Reaction
3,932
It's kind of disturbing how every time someone brings up something that is remotely safety related, there is always at least one person and usually several who's response is basically "Racing is dangerous so DGAF". The idea that people shouldn't bother thinking about how to be more safe because it's a dangerous sport is...dangerous. Hell, why make seat belts, helmets, window nets, etc mandatory? Back in the good old days everyone had open face helmets and crappy belts. If they die, they die right? Racing is dangerous so why bother trying to ensure that we are doing everything we can to protect both the very existence of the sport and the lives of our friends and families who do this as a hobby...
study Sir Jackie Stewart and f1 safety, now He was a fat thorn in f1 back in the day
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,793
Reaction
1,422
Are pressurized fuel filler systems safe?

Personally I don’t think so, and do not think they should be legal to use. But the sanctioning body’s are afraid to turn 20-30 teams away.

With that said I think the manufacture should be responsible of having the system pressure certified. I think all teams that use them should have to register each PP system with each sanctioning body that allows them to use them at their races. Each team should have to show that their team members are trained with certification, and there should be proof that the PP system has been serviced on a regular schedule.

I also think 90% of the problems are going to be user error, but it does not really matter if it’s equipment or user error. A failure is a failure and will eventually lead to a death if ignored like it is today.

How many of these so called top professional teams using pressurized systems actually train their amateur/volunteer pit members, and have these systems tested and serviced on a regular schedule?

In the case of this accident could the 100 plus degree temperature and sitting in the sun contributed to the increased pressure and failure? Even with nitrogen your going to see a pressure increase with heat.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Posts
12,612
Reaction
7,681
my fire station had a pressure vessel refilling system at the location. It was inspected by a state inspector every year. One year, one of the clamps that held one of the storage tanks was covering the stamp that indicated the year of manufacture and pressure test service date. He wanted to fine us thousands of dollars for having a non-rated tank in the system. It was easily fixed and no fine was given, but what would he do with something like this at any business that ever has an Osha Inspection???
 

JDDurfey

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,964
Reaction
3,311
I have no dog in this fight. I am just a racing fan these days. But I agree that the sight glass on a pressure vessel is the weakest link.

There is an easy solution for this. I have wireless tank monitors on my 500 gallon bulk oil tanks in my shop. The tanks are double wall so containments are not required. Tapping on the outside of the tank does not work to check level, we don't "dip" the tanks to avoid contaminating the oil. The wireless monitors are great. Now I can watch the levels and my vendor can watch the levels from anywhere and see what we need to stock up on. Our monitors use wi-fi but I am sure there are ones that can be operated off blue tooth so it could be monitored from a phone. I would imagine there are other options available other than that that could eliminate the need to have a sight glass.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Posts
1,350
Reaction
2,798
The sight tube has never failed and handles the pressure fine. It’s max 15psi and is a tube with 2 hose clamps. Maybe you guys don’t understand 15 psi. Your garden hose is 60-80psi

can’t say this any more clearly. When operated in the design envelope (under 15psi) the system is safe and has been proven over and over.

Show me one failure of a system that’s used properly.

I am all for making something better but you can’t deny that the system has proven itself and is safe. Unless of course you defeat the “safety”valve.

Mike
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,788
Reaction
7,259
Earlier in this thread I mentioned that a scatter shield might be helpful in throttling back the effects of a scary failure like we just had last weekend. Anybody got any ideas on the best way top do this? I know its doesn't solve a problem but would be a layer of safety that could be easily added.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,797
Reaction
871
A redundant PRV system would negate the need for a scatter shield. Rupture discs like OP mentioned are a great back up.
(No need to contain an explosion if an explosion can't happen)

An FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis) would be a good start.
 

green787

Well-Known Member
Posts
10,021
Reaction
2,468
The sight tube has never failed and handles the pressure fine. It’s max 15psi and is a tube with 2 hose clamps. Maybe you guys don’t understand 15 psi. Your garden hose is 60-80psi

can’t say this any more clearly. When operated in the design envelope (under 15psi) the system is safe and has been proven over and over.

Show me one failure of a system that’s used properly.

I am all for making something better but you can’t deny that the system has proven itself and is safe. Unless of course you defeat the “safety”valve.

Mike

I only know what I read on RDC about these pressurized re-fueling rigs.... Except that homes need 50psi of water pressure to funtion properly....
Now that I know these are tanks that someone just welded up with no concern for certification I'm OVER THEM....!!!!
They need to be BANNED.... like 3 wheelers.... And for the same reason..... public safety......
I use the same method to pump water out of my plastic 55 gallon drum..... Just a little bit of pressure on top and I have a regular garden hose going on to cool off cars, spray water on bikinis, etc..... But I wouldn't even imagine doing that with fuel....
I don't currently race, I don't own a trophy truck, and I'm retired and have plenty of time to put fuel in my vehicles.....
I've shown how I do it safely with an electric transfer pump and a gas station style filler hose......
Art Sevedra fell on his ruptured fuel tank in a motorcycle accident..... He helped me plumb my roll over vent hose on my fuel cell....
He was all I ever needed to remind me of fire safety......
You go girl.....
 
Last edited:

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,793
Reaction
1,422
Anyone know what F1 is using for 2021 fuel service?
F1 has banned fueling during the races since 2010. They felt it was to dangerous And changed the dynamics of the race. Fueling can only be done in the garage area with a FIA approved single fueling system that is designed by a French company and is certified. I’m not sure how it works but I remember hearing about it chills the fuel? It might be pressurized because the use of electric pumps or any electronics in that area is banned for safety.

But we should never compare F1 to desert racing, as desert racing is kid stuff compared to how F1 is operated.
 
Last edited:

Rslhc

Well-Known Member
Posts
117
Reaction
132
F1 has banned fueling during the races since 2010. They felt it was to dangerous And changed the dynamics of the race. Fueling can only be done in the garage area with a FIA approved single fueling system that is designed by a French company and is certified. I’m not sure how it works but I remember hearing about it chills the fuel? It might be pressurized because the use of electric pumps or any electronics in that area is banned for safety.

But we should never compare F1 to desert racing, as desert racing is kid stuff compared to how F1 is operated.

Current F1 news shows that refueling may be back on for 2021. Drivers hate the added weight and tire issues from the large fuel cells. Adding fuel options allows them to get the weight back in line and is very much on the table from what I read.
 
Top