Rob! I sure do...... Ken ran a great race and won it out right! BUT was DQ in post race tech. when his engine was found to be .3 over on compression! He was made to strip his engine down to the short block, pulled the barrels and even checked the crank! but was told he could not watch as the cc. and comression were being checked "By Arts" and so he was DQed for a comp. ratio of 7.8 " instead of the 7.5 as the rules state.
Personaly I think he was shafted by the powers that be! WHY becouse I sold him his car and I know that Engine and I know the Professional Engine Builder that built it and he would not have made a mistake like that!!! But what can you do when their is no appeal process and no recourse for double checking for errors or allowed to watch and see personally that the readings are correct! I would be pissed because Ken has been racing at a pace this year that very few of us could handle especially for his first year, and he deserves a Win! This Win! RS
Time to race with MORE I guess because they use the Honor System and there is no post race tear down! If you don't trust your fellow Class drivers then don't race! Just spectate!
"Time to race with MORE I guess because they use the Honor System and there is no post race tear down!" 90% of us would never knowingly cheat, it's the other 10% that creates a problem, that's why I prefer to race with an organizer that does have post race tech. I fully agree that the racer should be allowed to view the tech and see the results for themself. I've always been allowed to stand there and see the post tech, never been a problem.
You are right in that we should not have to make a choice between Tech or no Tech! I just trust people.....and would like to think that 99.9% of all racers play by the rules but if we are going to pay $1000s of dollars to build and maintain a race car just to get shot down at the finish line because of a mistake or misreading of some guage then I would rather not put out the effort. Heck! Arm chair racing is starting to look better all the time! and a new lazyboy is sure alot cheaper than the real thing. "Naaa" That don't replace the Adreniline rush of the real thing now does it! RS
Rob - I'm in full agreement with you about spending 1000's of dollars on a race only to have a mis-reading or mistake on a guage cost someone a race. That's why it's paramount that the driver/car owner be allowed to observe all post tech checks, we've never had a problem with ARTS in that regard and they have always answered any questions we have had. I too trust people, about 90% of them, BUT I would just hate to spend 1000's of dollars racing to have some ass from that 10 percentile cheat us out of a win - that is why I choose to race primarily with race organizers that have a full post tech.
What is the explaination for not being allowed to observe the process that makes or breaks you? That's like not being allowed in the courtroom when you are accused of a crime. I'm not making any comment on whether or not the engine was legal, I just want to know why the defendant was not allowed to see the evidence presented against him. This wouldn't happen in a court of law, why is OK here? Further, were the instruments used to determine guilt calibrated? When were they last calibrated and by whom.
It's fine to live and die by the rulebook, but the tools of justice need to be verifiably accurate. I just cannot understand why the accused couldn't watch the process.
I have only run 3 races in the last 3 years where "ARTS" was doing the tech work, all others were MORE races. At those three races we finished in the Top three twice, the first time we went to Post tech with a 3rd place we were told we did not have to tear down or check anything...unless their was a problem with the 1st or 2nd place car! At the other we finished 2nd. and our car was pushed into a roped off area and we were not allowed to watch or participate. I think they only did a cc. check and gear ratio check and all was OK. BUT we were not allowed to get close enough to watch, So I'm not sure what the policy of "ARTS" is but I would make darn sure before I put myself in that position again! Rob S.
I think we are all in agreement that the driver/owner of the vehicle needs to be allowed to observe the post tech, why that wasn't allowed at the Primm race I don't know, but it wasn't right! In the past 2 1/2 years I've done 14 races where ARTS did the tech and we were teched at 11 of them, and we were allowed to be present at each. At the most recent, MDR Kartek 400, it was a full tear down and ARTS loaned us some tools and even gave us some beverages as we worked and watched and asked many questions during the post tech. As for the policy at ARTS, as I understand it - they randomly pick a few classes at each race to go thru a full tear down and the other classes get a more "surface" check (which it sounds as rob went thru), but you don't know which it will be so you had better be prepared/legal for a full tear down.
I agree with Kurt and his experience with ARTS. We have had the same positive experience at post tech, and have always been allowed 2 people with the car during post tech.
I found Arts e-mail and have e-mailed him asking for a response. I have seen people get fired up before on issues without having all the facts, or hearing from both sides.
I know Ken has to be disappointed, but I am sure this isn't the first time a motor built by a "professional" has exceeded class limits. I am sure Ken has had some dialogue with his engine builder this week.
I think it's time to hear directly from the main party's involved! I beleive Ken reads this board, and Art can find his way from GO-Dez to here. I have nothing against Art, he serves a wonderful service to our sport and gets very little in return so before this issue gets to heated lets get the scoop straight from source.
And I'm off to the Tech for the Barstow 300 right now and will be driving Car # 911 for Harry Dunn and crew! Should be a great race! R.S.
Where is this in the rulebook? There needs to be established, accepted procedures for this scenario!
I am 100% happy with the rulebook (of course, I don't own a car anymore...). This needs to be written down. I don't want to hear "well we've always just done it this way..." It's gotta be in black and white if there gonna force the owner/driver away from the car.
Of course, there is no SCORE 2002 rulebook. The current book says 1999-2001 on it. Damn it, there I go again getting all technical. But then again, this is a technical issue.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: something here stinks.
Well I just got back from the Barstow 300 "Dont ask how my race went" And I made a special trip down to Post race tech to see how it was being conducted at this race! By ARTS.
Much to my surprise the post race tech area was completely open to every car owner,driver,rider,crew,spectators brother,uncle,cousin who felt like pitching a picnic right next to the cars!!!!! not only was it not roped off but not restriced in any way to anyone, and we could walk right up and watch every teardown and it happened. I must add though that only the Pro 1600 cars were being checked becouse they were the only class that had more than 2 finishers. Class 9 only had Dan Folts as a full race finisher! So your guess is as good as mine as to why this would be different than the Score Primm race? Rob S.
Here is Arts e-mail in response to these posts:
(I think this clears the air... and thanks Art for your quick reply)
I can't get on Race-Dezert.com to reply back in defence.
I'm having one of those nights with my future ex computer. I read the things about me at the SCORE Primm 300. I really don't think those guys who got DQ'ed know that I'm NOT in charge there! It's a SCORE race and Bill Savage is the Tech director and I work for him. ARTS is not the Tech group for that organization!
Please let these guys either to e-mail me or post something on Go-desert if they want to go public with this! They were caught with a motor that was clean off and measure by a man that knows what he is doing when it come heads and cc'ing. maybe it was a one cc or it 5 cc's or half of a cc. Anything OVER 7.5 cc is over. He checked both ports to make sure and Bill checked the figures and they double checked again.
About the posts on this weekends race....yes it was like a open tech area, I had no control over that MORE didn't have any fencing to put up! We tried to send people out and clear the area, with no fences we had problems. Reason we have a everryone out of the area is due some motor builders THINK that they have a edge with a speaial cut or way to build a motor.
Thank you, and yes I have to call them like I too see them. Just sometimes we find something.
Well there you have it! Thats good enough for me...... Over is over, legal or not legal. cut and dry, End of disscusion! Thanks ART for clearing that up. Nice to see some dialog going on in this board for once! OH ya the race! Well I had Murphy riding with me all day!!! R.S.
My contention was NOT whether or not the motor was legal! My beef was the way the owner/operator of the car was not allowed to be present during the investigation. Arts response does not address this segregation.
If Art had nothing to do with keeping Ken away from the measuring process, fine! Then Art isn't the problem. Something/someone is. Even the SCCA doesn't do this.
I really don't like you to be the middle man is this, but I can't post anything on F/9.
Whats going to happen is SCORE's Tech director will shut down the SCORE'S TECH area when we measure anything. Right now they allowed only two people in with any vehicle and they are to stay by their own vehicle.
Please let all these racers know I run a good honest tech inspection and allow the same standards as SCORE does. Also it's our area and we are responable for the parts/tools laying around in my area. I wouldn't want a cylinder head missing while in TECH, that would lead us to think that YOU didn't want me to see it. That is the main reason I don't allow any more then two people in the area while ARTS TECH is working we are busy making sure none of my friends are cheating on any other of my friends.
With any SCORE race a complaint goes through a chain of command and the final word is not what we want to hear.
Please remember when at SCORE, I work for Bill Savage. ARTS is the official TECH for MDR, SNORE, ESTERO BEACH, PIT & ACE and a few more I can't think of right now.
Another e-mail from Art......posted here per his request
This guy TimHayosh may find him self all alone outside the "Tech Area" watching from a far. SCORE Tech is a all professional and working on a volunteer pay scale. Bill Savage, has done alot for this sport and has been a target for the last twenty years or so.....I share the target thing. We work our Tech areas differently....but still only two people working on the vehicles while being inspected.
Also, I worked for SCCA for a good many years as a inspector and "Post-tech" inspector. This Tim dude doesn't ring a bell. I could go on about working the LongBeach Grand Prix for the first bunch of years and watched it go down hill frrom there. Well anyway thats something elas.
All I ask and I'm asking here.....Please do AS you are asked while in my area "TECH".....it is a retricted area and always has been......you are a guest in this area. Even, reporters ask to come in. I do have pull in this area!
Rob, if you would, please post this on F/9
Thank you & See ya in the Go-Desert!
Art "The TECH DUDE" Savedra, Wattarush@aol.com
I post my real name and e-mail
This Tim-Dude was only responding to what seemed to be a mystery. It was stated in this thread that Ken was prohibited from watching the inspection of his motor. If you slow down and re-read this thread (this is post number 19), you'll see that the restriction from the inspection was my only beef. I don't know Ken, I don't know Art, I don't know Bill Savage. I have no interest in defending or insulting ANY of these people.
Art, my real email address and website are directly linked to my username on the left side of your screen. I can be contacted there anytime if you feel I have acted with a bias toward you or anyone else. I think if you re-read this thread to understand the context of all the statements, you will agree.
My only beef (all along) has been the restriction from the inspection. Where is this in the rulebook? That's all I want to know.
Further, one of Arts inspectors sought me out at the recent MDR race and volunteered his side of the story. It was markedly different than what was originally reported here. If what he said was true, then all of this was for nothing. He said Ken was NOT prevented from being present at his own inspection.
So, in the end; two opposing stories. None of them involve me. I'll just sit quitely and post no more on this topic. My apologies to those who think I was just stirring trouble. I was trying to solve a mystery.
If anyone wants my 10 cents, I can be reached for further comment at the email address mentioned above.