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Pro Unlimited Buggy

speedfun

Well-Known Member
Hi guys
Some of you know I've been in buggies for 39 years. I see the Pro Buggy car count going down. I feel if we can lower the cost somehow so the class will thrive again!
This class is way cheaper than the UTV's and a hell of a lot more fun. Ya there a hand full but once you get it figured out you can go drive anything....
This is the staple of short course racing. Before the trucks it was ALL open wheel rear engine cars. (buggy's- I hate that word BTW)
What are your thoughts on how to lower the cost and make it desirable for guy's to get one of these cars and go racing..
My .02 ---- the motor trans cost needs to come way down..
I will say-- I was one to push the ECOTEC into the class rules but now NOT a big fan. At the start it was around a $5 grand deal.. NOW $12 grand + you need that 5 or 6 speed trans to complete the package. another $12- 16 thousand
$25 - 30 grand package is not affordable to the guys in this class anymore! It's time to make some changes guys. It's just like the $15 grand RedLine Toyota that was killing the class so we adopted the Ecotec..

So let's hear your thoughts...

My thoughts---
There are 1000s of cars sitting that can be bought cheap Ya they need some updating but still cheaper than a UTV.. most have VW bus boxes that would work great with an air cooled VW or the Rabbit motor.
I went a little crazy with my 2000cc air cooled but it made a whopping 230Hp and 220 TQ with over the counter parts.
The VW rabbit was the start of all the water cooled motors in this class..
But the rues say 1715cc let that go to 2000cc with stock components ( Heads Crank Rods ) and the VW bus box will work great..
I have built one and the cost is under $4000.. blow one up and get another one from the scrap yard for $200 Heck I could have 3 for the cost of one Ecotec.
These are just 2 examples of lowering the cost of power plants that will work in the older cars ..

So let's hear what you think?
LET'S MAKE PRO BUGGY affordable so the kids from Trophy carts can keep racing to the next level-- trucks
 
First off, I'm a buggy guy, always have been, probably always will. The issue is, I can go to any powersports dealer and finance my $30K plus "race car", do some modifications and I'm set. Super buggy is an awesome class, and great class to watch on the track. Limited 1600 buggy guys have some of the same issues. Have you priced what a 1600 VW engine build is lately? I realize at least the 1600 cars still use a bus trans, and that keeps some of the cost down. Other than the light buggy class, Super buggy, Limited buggy car counts have dropped badly.
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
First off, I'm a buggy guy, always have been, probably always will. The issue is, I can go to any powersports dealer and finance my $30K plus "race car", do some modifications and I'm set. Super buggy is an awesome class, and great class to watch on the track. Limited 1600 buggy guys have some of the same issues. Have you priced what a 1600 VW engine build is lately? I realize at least the 1600 cars still use a bus trans, and that keeps some of the cost down. Other than the light buggy class, Super buggy, Limited buggy car counts have dropped badly.
End of the day the UTV will still be $40 grand +, you wad one up you still have to pay for it.
I use a 094 VW trans good to 300 hp Weddel makes some nice stuff these days.. That I have used the 094 with the ecotec and the air cooled and the rabbit motor. But I am easy on transmissions) some guys kill one every race too..
The cost of 1600 motors is just crazy ($8000) if you get it from FAT or most builders I have never spent that kinda money on one. but that's just me.
But I here you-! and that is why I started this thread in hopes to keep Buggy's alive
 

J&B RACING

Well-Known Member
I suggested to Lucas last year in the Limited Buggy or1600 Desert Buggy Class to make an Outlaw Class which would just open the rule for the motor size to 2000cc with a Weber carb set-up. You can keep the current Limited Buggy and Pro Class "AS IS" but there are so many older cars out there that could be put together cheaply and get them out of the garages and have some fun. I would love to put a big motor in my little car. It gets frustrating racing a 1600 motor starving for power all the time.
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
I suggested to Lucas last year in the Limited Buggy or1600 Desert Buggy Class to make an Outlaw Class which would just open the rule for the motor size to 2000cc with a Weber carb set-up. You can keep the current Limited Buggy and Pro Class "AS IS" but there are so many older cars out there that could be put together cheaply and get them out of the garages and have some fun. I would love to put a big motor in my little car. It gets frustrating racing a 1600 motor starving for power all the time.

Your spot on ! I agree JB
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
BUt I think that 2000cc rule should be for pro buggy too
 

J&B RACING

Well-Known Member
To make it real easy just make any 2.5 motor. Jap, German,etc. Must remain stock. You can buy used jap engines cheap. Blow it up and just buy another one. Put in Super Buggy or Limited Buggy chassis.
 

CYS Motorsports

Well-Known Member
My teammate ran a CVT setup in his pro buggy this year with an Ecotec, and it lasted all year with no major issues. They may prove a viable option instead of the transaxle setups in the future.

Talking to a very competitive west coast driver last year at Crandon, there is not a huge performance gain on the "built" Ecotec motors vs a junkyard unit, it's more just a durability thing. I think the people spending that money on the "name brand" motors are just doing it to "keep up with the Jones.'"
 

J&B RACING

Well-Known Member
I have thought about that, just take the motor and CVT trans assembly and put the whole assembly in a the back of a buggy. Add the paddle shifters and I think it would be trick set up. Cheap and easily replaced.
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
Back in 2007 I wanted to use the CVT transmission and the powers to be shut it down...
I also tried to bring in all wheel drive and they shut that down too..
I think some of these stupid decisions they make are favoring some of the manufacturers (Fortin just to name one as an example..
Maybe they are putting some $ in the series or just the tech guys..
But to ban something before it has even been tried ?
This is why we need to have our own rules..!!!!
Let the class vote on what can be used.. NOT THE PROMOTERS
 

racefan2041

Well-Known Member
John Frana ran a four wheel drive super buggy in CORR, WSORR, and the TORC Series. If I remember right he just showed up at a race with it. There were no rules saying you couldn't make a four wheel drive buggy back then. Not exactly sure how the tech guys handled it. May have been a class vote to let him race or not? Took him years to get it all to work. When he did he was winning races. Unfortunately he stopped racing.
 

freshwillie

Active Member
John Frana ran a four wheel drive super buggy in CORR, WSORR, and the TORC Series. If I remember right he just showed up at a race with it. There were no rules saying you couldn't make a four wheel drive buggy back then. Not exactly sure how the tech guys handled it. May have been a class vote to let him race or not? Took him years to get it all to work. When he did he was winning races. Unfortunately he stopped racing.
they outlawed it
 
Is the real issue, its just plain easier to "tech" and make sure everyone plays by the same rules for one brand of engine, instead of having several different engine manufacturers? I guess its also easier to only tech 6 or 7 race cars instead of 20 or more too.
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
1542310812711.png


I have a 2 seat car that this front diff unit would work great on. Also I use the VW bus 094 side shifting transmission that went with it.. Ring and pinion gear ratios are the same and it comes with a vacuum Diff lock like my 094 has..
Yes I can lock or unlock my transmission diff during the race..
The VW 094 will handle 300 HP+ you can have a diff lock and be under $6000 - also these don't need a jig to build you can set them up on a bench..
I will say with the Weddle side shift unit this is hands down the best shifting transmission I have ever used.
1542312067113.png
 

speedfun

Well-Known Member
This just came up on FB marketplace for $6000 what a great car!! a little updating and this car would be competitive
1542383845292.png
 

gawdodirt

Well-Known Member
Super Buggies kind of "out teched" themselves. From what we saw in AZ Regional Tech, there was a pretty dramatic range of "Sealed engines." There is a list of things that can be done under the rules. The more you want performed, the more it costs. A crate engine would be the way to go, with no massaging by anyone. The intent was good, just not executed well. Just like most of the "stock" classes that LUCAS starts. It HAS to be stock! Except for this, this and this, Then have it dyno tuned to maximize all your "Stock" parts. SXS have really been the downfall of many classes, not just buggies. The fact that you can finance a "stock" fairly competitive car, and not pay out a lump sum, is really a huge draw. Replace the fragile parts, add an exhaust, air filter, add a Power Commander and cage. Then, after a year of racing, put the shiny stock parts back on and sell it. Then go get a new one.
 

PDANK Racing

Well-Known Member
A $12K ecotec is pretty ridiculous, especially considering the stock parts required. IMO, the trans cost is the biggest blocker for someone looking to get into the class. So far the most cost effective super buggy I've seen, is Chris Vandenelzen who races in the midwest. Mid engine( I think ecotec) with junkyard BMW manual trans($300) with winter quick change rear diff with cv axles. I think he only had one issue with the trans during the season, case cracked and lost 4th gear. The nice part about the rear diff is super cheap gears ($70-150 per set) with tons of ratios readily available, and they can handle the abuse. I'm guessing the diff setup is $1500 to $2000 new without cvs/axles.
Really hoping this setup works, I've been hoping to race Super buggy for awhile, this puts it in my price range.
 
Somthing M.O.R.E. is trying, it might be the ticket for cheaper limited buggy engine's as long as they are sealed and there is no massaging of any kind. It's a 1.4 chevy cruze engine with the turbo removed about $600 on ebay. I know of a 1600 car that is being converted to this he is hoping to race at the 1st race in January all he did was add coilovers and put this engine in the car. Cost him about the same as an engine rebuild to do the whole conversion.
 

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freshwillie

Active Member
this is a unlimited class with super minimal rules. that's not likely going to change. if you want to raise car counts and have a lower cost option give vw based cars a bigger rule advantage then they have currently. there's probably 1000's of outdated nice vw based super buggies out there. as a fan of the class i would love to see something other than alumicrafts on the podium.
 
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