Pro ?

[mgobaja]

I can see that with all of these PRO groupings that some power is being shifted from one promoter to another or even a group of promoters. That's good for the racers because it will force the promoters to earn the racers business and respect. It also increases the earning potential for various teams. In a typical race you are lucky to earn anything more than your entry fee back. With the start of Pro-Dirt and the others some serious cash can be won. And the promoter can also either gain a great deal or lose a whole lot by offering or not offering some type of bonuses to the PRO groups. It looks like the PRO groups are trying to select various race from different promoters to show the promoters who pays their salary.

 

[Klaus]

reminds me of a workers union...

 

[DMSRACE]

Klaus, you work? J/K

Racer

 

[pciscott]

The Pro concept was originally to help build a bigger purse and get more competition. I think that picking races from different promoters is not helping the sport. This is taking away the prestige of a points championships. If a promoter offers a special deal to one class and not another is this fair? I say pick a promoter and support him and his complete series. If you want a bigger purse add some money to the entry fee and have the promoter pay it all back. Its great that people are getting involved to build excitement look what the Mini Metal Bash did, They picked an event and worked hard to make it better and had 20 7s trucks with a $14,000 purse. In my opinion our sport just took two steps back with 5 more promoters, Protruck, Prodirt, Pro1600, Pro10, and Pro12. Add these to SCORE, BITD, SNORE, MDR, Whiplash, MORE, CODE, FUD, VORRA, and BORE. That is 15 championship points trophies available in each class. At least the trophy shops are getting rich. How do we attract TV with so many race dates? Cross promoting between Snore and More and Snore and Whiplash seems to be building bigger events and means less race dates. This could be a great way to trim down the race schedule so we don't continually have dates on top of each other less races means more cars per race. I think it is great that classes are organizing and building excitement but what good is a class points trophy when there are more than 10 available in each class? Why wasn't the Baja 1000 race on any Pro schedules? This race is by far the biggest most prestigious race and also a race that the general public can relate to? On another note SCORE and BITD both have helicopters with medical staff at all there events for quick response to emergencies. Will SNORE and Whiplash also have these things in place for such a large event? More competition with more aggressive drivers racing for bigger purses equals more danger. This is a fact we don't like to think about, but safety should always be our #1 concern. To everyone going to Laughlin or Parker have fun and be safe I think these will both be great races. PCI Race Radios will some how split our contingency to support our customers racing either event. It would be great to be able to have Parker contingency early on Friday and Laughlin later in the day after the prerun to make it so the smaller companies could make it to both contingencies. To all the Pro class guys good luck in 2002!

God Bless America

Scott Steinberger Trophy Truck #7

 

[TimHayosh]

PCIScott said: "On another note SCORE and BITD both have helicopters with medical staff at all there events for quick response to emergencies. Will SNORE and Whiplash also have these things in place for such a large event?"

Believe me, I'm the last guy to stick up for Whiplash, but they usually have Native American Air on-site at all American races. With all the motorcycles, they usually get used.

 

[pciscott]

Thats great to hear tim. Hope everyone racing has a safe weekend. Good luck to everyone racing Parker or Laughlin.

God Bless America

Scott Steinberger Trophy Truck #7

 

[BSchlimme]

Scott,
To expand a bit from the "PRO" side from where we left off when we spoke.....

Throughout this year Class 10 has worked on putting together a "side bet" to entice more money into the program and offer more of a payback.

Overall it was not wildly successful - why? Not having a large platform with all the amenities that come with a "PRO" type organization makes it difficult for people to get behind something like it and support it. Sure we could have conceived PRO-10 only within the SCORE sanctioning body but that is not what the "customers" were telling us.

Not only do the racers of Class 10 want better paybacks and larger fields but they are after the opportunity to compete in other events that normally they would not "have the opportunity to do" because they are caught chasing a series.

Being able to control your direction is something that the "PRO" groups bring to their programs. Look at the schedule that PRO-10 selected:
Parker 400
San Felipe 250
Baja 500
Primm 300
Las Vegas 200

The only issue for SCORE is that our choice for Parker. So what did we do - we allowed for 1 throw out race for the championship. If you need to be at Laughlin you can. Also with the other dates they do not present any conflict with SCORE races (3/5 are SCORE).

The Baja 1000 was not picked because there are teams in Class 10 that do not have the resources to field a point to point race and PRO-10 as a whole new that so I believe everyone consciously kept that race off the program. But with the schedule that was voted in it will allow those to compete in the Baja 100 and I am sure that the "regular" SCORE 10 competitors will be there.

What I see in the end of all of this is the "PRO" groups working with the promoters to create more cooperation amongst them.

If no one wants to race a race why should the promoter have it on their schedule? As you have mentioned, why not have a series where the promoters stake their ground and promote their strongest venues and have a series that is made up of these races.

The next couple of years may not be easy for the promoters but with good communication I do believe that the sport will benefit as a whole.

Keep the ideas flowing and everyone should pick up the phone and call their promoter and discuss any issues they have. I know their lines are always open and they appreciate constructive comments.

Ben

 

[Rory]

Ben,
I believe you have the right idea. I think the problem is there are alot of classes looking to the "Pro Dirt" way of running there class. If all "Pro" series run a different schedule than everyone else, entries are going to be down in each series....would you agree? The answer is to reduce promoters, and have a Racer, spectator and promoter friendly series that will flurish. We need to get entries back up in the 300 to 400 range (cars) to get the manufacturers involved again. Spectators are important, they are the ones buying the product for there prerunners and SUV's. I personally will not run any tire on my truck or prerunner other than a BFG due to the commitment the company has to the sport. Look at NASCAR, the poles show 97% of them buy products that sponsor race cars. As for spectating, if nobody was at the track, why would companies be interested in sponsoring a NON-SPECTATING sport?

I think there needs to be only one "Pro Dirt" that speaks for ALL CLASSES, make a group decision, and go racing. Be it race the whole Whiplash, SCORE, BITD or SNORE series, pick one and build something. There could be other series for teams to start out in, kind of like a BUSCH series. I know a lot of people might not like the idea of losing a series they run in, but if this sport is going to go anywhere, and more payback is wanted, better insurance, better contingency packages, more sponsors, your going to have to make some sacrifices. Did I miss anything?

"Pro Dirt" opened some eye's, but lets not just look out for our own class, lets look out for all off road racers or there just might not be a series to race in period. My .02 cents.

Racers Only

 

[martininsocal]

rory0 your just about perfect! i think that is the direction we are heading. we had something similiar before in the idra, but that still had manufactirers reps, etc...on it and had influence from outside influence. george thompson was right on with the concept, but the group failed to have enough clout to make the changes for the racers because of the promoter and big money.

those days are over. the promoters can only dream about manufactirers sponsorship and the drivers, if they work to gether, can have some clout to make changes. changes like fewer promoters/race dates. why not 4 each from score and bitd and let the smaller promoters work around those dates so the snall rpomoter isn't competing with score and score isn't losing racers running the smaller series?
a congress of drivers can look at issues now and make changes that will have effects next year, in 5 years, and in 10 years and everyone will know what to expect. not have to make a major program change in 2 months for a new motor rule or suspension upgrade/downgrade. if a promoter doesn't want to make changes that a majority of racers want, that promoter will be signing their own cloes of business deal. the biggest thing is getting racers to communicate needs and desires and come up with common goals for the sport. don't let the promoter do this for us. we are the ones paying their bills, let's have some say in our future.

If your gonna go, go BIG

 

[JCA]

Rory, you are on the right track. This has been covered on this board before. It's title was the vision thing. Here is what I posted back then:

I have been looking at this thread for a while now trying to decide if I should respond. I know I am not a guy that is going to solve this. I do not have time or money. I can't even solve my motor problem that plagued me at the Tonopah 300 and at the Primm 300. But I do want to give my $.02.
I think people have stepped up and are starting the small steps towards one sanctioning body. We are different than Nascar in many ways. It is not feasible to have separate races for separate classes so what a few people have started are groups or small organizations representing different classes (Pro Dirt, Pro 1600, Mini-Metal Bash and others). Once all the classes have a group for them the next step might be to have a board made up of one rep from each group. That board would be the organizational board that would work with the promoters thus you have an organizational sanctioning body that does not put on races but rather standardizes the rules and National points. If some one else runs a race and their car meets the rules of the promoter but not the sanctioning body and they win they still win but receive no recognition from the sanctioning body and no National points. As the sanctioning body’s exposure increases and as respect from the media, Promoters and other sanctioning body’s increases more teams will come into compliance with the sanctioning body rules.
I have seen people giving groups a hard time for forming. I say to the groups way to go just don’t start bashing other groups! I see 7s doing something in the future just because of the motor rule change. I see people saying that classes should be eliminated or combined. I disagree we need everybody and the classes let people with different financial abilities participate.
I have other ideas on how to organize races around the nation but we are not even close to that yet and when we get close there will probably be a posting on this site that I will respond to. All of this takes time and the sport is far from dead. It took me 10 years to put enough money away and to become stable in my life to build my own truck. I hope to be still racing when all of this is set but I know that if I am not my son and daughter will be.
To answer the question of why do I race off road- I everything associated with it. The weekend camping trip, the people you meet and even better the people your family meets and hangs out with talking about everything under the sun (not just the race). The racing stories and when it comes to the racing it is me and my team against the desert if I beat the desert I am a happy dude, if I beat everyone in my class I am ecstatic and if I beat anyone that started in a “faster class” in front of me that is just gravy on my taters (didn’t like icing on my cake) Just my $.02.



J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing
www.andrewsracing.com

 

[Snmiedo]

Great to see some constructive and insightful posts regarding this subject! I have been prophesizing for the last 2 years to form a "DRIVER'S ORGANIZATION" where its members, those that pay membership fees, would actually have a say with regards to rules, race venues, points, payback, etcetera. However, while everyone's opinion is indeed important, there needs to be a leader or a board for that matter to take in everyone's ideas and formulate them into action.
IMAGINE, having a 7 race series where Whiplash, SNORE, SCORE, FUD, BITD, CODE, MDR, and / or MORE race promoters could have 1 or more stops on their schedule for the 'PRO OFF-ROAD" series. Keep in mind that not everyone would run that specific series completely thus leaving the individual promoters to maintain their own points series if desired.
As a contingency sponsor, I would be interested in positing greater awards to a unified group that would be greater than the sum of all of the postings (SCORE, FUD, CODE, BITD, Whiplash, Estero Beach) annually! Our company would entertain this on the premise that some strong marketing support would help to increase the benefit of our involvement in the sport. Hopefully much more than posting contingency and running our sticker!
I am very excited about the interest put forward thus far. I would certainly like it to continue and would be willing to organize a meeting where those interested could get together and discuss what and where we want off-road racing to go.
Now is the time to make things happen! All buggies, trucks, off-roaders, motorcycles, quads, professionals, amateurs, recreationalists, sand duners, etecetera, this is a perfect opportunity to get what we want while protecting what we love and use, the desert.
If interested, please contact me via e-mail @ racerxmotorsports@ hotmail.com
Thanks!
Michael Cohen

 

[jimpat]

in circa 1959 some of the drag racers got together and formed the United Drag Racers Association, UDRA.
The drags strip owners did not like it much (Pappy Hart from the Santa Ana drags, Mickey Thompson from Lyons in Long Beach, etc. ) but we stuck together and prevailed.
We received more tow money and higher purses. That was the start of professional drag racing and you all see what it became.... At the Indy PRI show last week, I talked to the people in the UDRA booth and we remenisced
those days of all night towing for 25$ and 100 $ top eliminator money....
Now is in millions.... wish i stayed in it in ' 75 instead of starting in off road.....

when everything is under control, you are going to slow!!!!!

 

[pciscott]

The idea of a drivers association is a great idea. The challenge is to many agendas = nothing ever getting done. Summit was a great idea, but volunteers can only do so much. I disagree that we should have a full series with one race from each promoter. This does not allow for a premier series like Nascar. Cross promoting is definitely building a bigger race that is better for contingency companies and the spectators. What we need is entry level racing for people to get there feet wet and then move into a bigger more competitive series. Some families race for fun and don't want there kids on the same track as the faster more aggressive cars. Comments you hear from people going to there first SCORE race is they sure do hit hard. The difference in competition levels is huge look at the mph difference between a Score and MDR race. I've seen a 1600 car win the overall at MDR or Snore this is impossible at a SCORE race. Look at the bike entries at BITD this year, they are half what they used to be because they are scared of the fast trucks. This scares the truck guys also, we're out at the race and have fun not kill someone. In my opinion motorcycles and 4 wheel vehicles should not be on the same track. Good job Whiplash having two separate races at Parker. Off-road racing is dangerous just like every form of motorsports the challenge is there is no wall between the racers and the spectators. Fans thrill at being close to the action, Yet a bad bump or part falure could send a car into the crowds. This is the main reason the manufacturers left our sport. This is a liability nightmare. Its not a question of if its a question of when. The sheer distance of a point to point race makes this impossible to police. Casey in trying to get more corporate backing, safety reasons, and the BLM had no spectator areas at his last race. While this definitely creates less liability and more safety the fans on this board did not like this at all. I think we need some medium ground here. Designated pit areas and spectators having to sign a release waiver could help this issue. Maybee a fee to cover the cost of this? We need spectators for our sport to grow, but you off-road race enthusiasts have to have the common sense to stay back, the dust, the speed, and the posibility of part failure creates extreme danger. When an accident does happen we need to stick together and not point fingers and not blame the drivers alone. This is a dangerous sport if you are with in 100 feet of a race course you are in danger. Walker Evans quit racing off-road when his tragic accident occurred at the Fireworks 250. Fingers were pointed at him buy competitors when this could have happend to any of us. We lost an icon in our sport and Dodge. I have just jumped into a whole new level of racing and while I hope to compete for the overall, killing a spectator would put an end to my racing. Spectators be careful and if you see some idiot standing too close to the course drag him back. We are only a few accidents away from the end of open desert racing as we know it today, be careful. In finishing up this novel I feel car owners have enough to do with there own time. An advisory board would be great like the old class rep system, but leave the promoting to the promoters. To all you promoters interact more with your customers and learn what people are looking for, an optional $500 dollars on the entry fee with 100% going into the purse might end the need for some of these pro type classes. We want to race for larger purses. You would only qualify for the bonus purse if you put in. Also maybe $100 to the year end points fund to help build the year end points. I would also like to thank Toyota for the $12,000 in true grit money and the Toyota milestone award. Four happy buggy guys got $3000 each and 10 others qualified for the Toyota milestone award. First time I finished every mile of every race in over 10 years of trying (this one goes on my mantle). Good luck to all and be safe!

God Bless America

Scott Steinberger Trophy Truck #7

 

[Jimmy8]

Well I tend to agree with Scott on a lot of things, but lets keep in mind that Walker was trying to pass Ivan going into a checkpoint, and it was a "NO PASSING ZONE". Not to mention like 3 laps left in the race so there was no hurry. Completely Walkers fault in my opinion. As for 500 added to entry fees. I totally agree. I think that would be great, and make the purses a whole lot better. I do think SCORE and BITD need to do some planning together. Sal and Casey need to bite the bullet and realize they are killing themselves and each other. Lets face it, only about half of each of there race draw good amounts of entries. I am not saying neccesarily combining orgs like score and hdra did, but they need to get together and make there schedules. They both run 5 races, making it 10 races a year, and there are 12 months. How about running 1 race every 5 weeks. They may have to go away from some traditional race dates but a lot of the races would be run by a lot more of the racers, and giving the racers more time to prep their cars. Look at Primm and the V to R this year, and Tonopah and the 500. One killed the other. Look at next year. 2 of the greatest races within 3 weeks of each other. the Baja 500 and the NV 1000. They will hurt each other. I like what Casey is doing getting factory backing, but he still has problems as does Sal, although he has some good points. I have talked to some of the Bigger TT drivers, and they would like to run both series but the battle between these 2 makes it impossible. Right now the only team with the opportunity to do this is the herbst, and that is wrong. I think not only do the racers need to band together but these promoters need to quit trying to out do each other and think about what is in the best interest of the sport which will make them a lot better off in the long run. I also know that some larger promoters were invited to take part in the Parker 400, but denied the opportunity. Why? Why not work together? It is a win win for everyone when we work together.

PMC Racing

 

[Waldo]

Scott, Jimmy, or whoever - does SCORE or BITD still have class representatives or stewards that represent the class regarding issues pertaining to their specific classes? AMA motorcycle desert racing, District 37 and others, have individual class stewards you meet with to discuss rules, rule changes, and concerns regarding each of their respective classes. Does this or did this used to happen with them (Sal and Casey)? Kind of like the CRB but used to create/promote their classes and the sport. I know motorcycles aren't as complex as a TT's but they do have many different considerations. For example; classes for engine displacement, 2-stroke and 4-stroke motors, age, and ability level (beginner, novice, intermediate, expert/pro).

I think Casey is doing a better job than old Sal (my opinion). He is a racer himself and loves the sport. Didn't he used to run the races (moto and cars/trucks) on different days? He also promotes many other races that don't include the cars/trucks. He will be promoting the Adelanto Grand Prix along with the Desert Vipers MC Club. They started the race back in 86. It has grown in entries to over 2000 motorcycle racers!!! The AMA tried to have all the racers become $$$$ AMA members (they never used to have that policy) and the Vipers said no way! Casey has come in to help and also bring in some more fast guys for the racing weekend. If any of you like dirt bike racin'...check out the Adelanto G.P.

BRAAAAAAAAP!

 

[Jimmy8]

I know that BITD has class representatives, and rule changes to classes are voted upon by the people in the class and BITD usually goes with what the class decides. As for SCORE, I know they did, but I dont know if they do anymore. They always did when my dad raced with them for those 25 years. I think it is a good idea.

PMC Racing

 

[JCA]

SCORE does not have them anymore. According to Sal, when I asked him at the Primm, the class reps started passing personal agenda items with out class approval. So the class reps went away. I have never heard what the name of my class rep in BITD would be. If there is such a creature I would like to know but my understanding is there is not one? Also if there is a class rep for my class (7s) at MDR I wopuld like to know name and # as well?

J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing
www.andrewsracing.com

 

[Jimmy8]

It is not really class reps but rather everyone in the class on a mailing list together, corresponding with one another when questions and changes may arrise. Class meetings are held once in a great while as well, where it is exclusivly your class. I know it is that way with 8100 anyways. I know SNORE still has a single person as a class rep though.

PMC Racing

 

[frankh]

With MDR just go talk to them, They are always calling me and carolyn to throw Ideas around and ask you what you think, They do not always go your way but at least the ask.

 

[JCA]

All promoters seem to be willing to take calls and answer questions. I was just wondering if they had a rep for the class and what there 3 was just to rap a little.

J.C. Andrews
Andrews Racing
www.andrewsracing.com