Race Gas

John Bitting

Administrator
Posts
11,951
Reaction
2,560
Is all the gas sold from VP, CL Bryant etc in Mexico super high octane?? If so what happens if I was to run "race gas" in a normal motor would it damage it? Thank you
 

stuckthrottle

Godlike
Posts
4,817
Reaction
110
i was going to start a race gas thread today, but with a different question.
Have prices for race gas increased at the same proportion as regular gas? I assume so. :S
I wonder how much that exotic elf gas that works bikes used to run would go for now.

oh and race gas supposedly burns your catylitic converter(s) out. we havent had any problems running it on regular cars but it might be because its usually mixed with the gas thats already inside the car.
 

mgobaja

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,370
Reaction
591
A lot fo the race gas sold is leaded and if used long enough in a vehicle with a catalytic converter it will cause it to melt down and plug up.
 

Kritter

Krittro Campbell
Posts
10,914
Reaction
296
I took my cat out so I can rock race gas home from the races when I am too broke! I noticed mondya morning my track would backfire when I wouldrev out first gear...dont know if it was teh Pemex burning through or the race gas.

Kris
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.barneysprecision.com/fabproducts.htm> Fab Parts</A>
 

hoeker

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,004
Reaction
101
actually john most race gas is developed to not be too high an octane, the lower the octane, the more HP you get from the fuel. this is a catch 22 as running too low an octane in a race engine would destroy it. (detonation) the higher quality fuels detonate less easily than pump gas, and provide significant power, and combustion temperature improvements. i have spent hours on the phone with VP and it is amazing all the different fuels they have available depending on your engine combination. the fuel i bought for my stocker last year, will work in my new truck, but at 10$ a gallon is more than i need to spend for the "proper fuel" for the new engine.

i priced out my VP for the season today, and didn't notice any change in price from last year.

i also don't think it would hurt your engine, just destroy your cat if you run one.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rosshoek.com>www.rosshoek.com</A>

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
 

tedmales

Well-Known Member
Posts
541
Reaction
10
if you do not have a cat, i would use av gas. its way cheaper than vp, and works great. it is leaded, and runs way better than plain 91 octane. its usually 100LL or low lead. you might not want to run it if your running like 14 to 1 compression, but for a mild perfprmance engine, it works great.

life is too short to be small
 

Mike_Cohen

Well-Known Member
Posts
440
Reaction
58
John,

Typically race fuel can really pep up performance. However, we have found that the following apply and help customer choose their flavor so to speak.

1) If your vehicle is fuel injected, they usually have oxygen sensors and leaded fuel will eventually kill them. In addition, the lead will also cause excessive heat post combustion and eventually burn up a catalytic converter. F&L makes a 101 Octane Unleaded fuel that works great in late model, computerized fuel injected vehicles. The Import crowd really uses this stuff when they finally get sick of replacing O2 sensors and such.

2) Contrary to popular belief, Avgas can actually be detrimental to your vehicle's engine. Keep in mind that fuel is intended to be used at very high altitudes (for flying) and running at consistent engine speed for a sustained period of time.

3) If you are looking for more performance from pump gas fuel, there are some excellent octane boost / fuel treatments available that actually work. We have found Trick and NOS products work the best and are not too expensive. Trick is usually available at motorcycle shops (Race Ready Products has it too 619-691-9171) and runs about $12.95 for a 20 gallon treatment. The NOS product is available in mass distribution through most automotive parts retailers like AutoZone.

Check out the F&L website <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.fandl.com>www.fandl.com</A> as they have some great info on there about these very topics.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Mike Cohen
Racer X Motorsports, Inc.
www.RacerXms.com {/url]
 

hoeker

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,004
Reaction
101
"Contrary to popular belief, Avgas can actually be detrimental to your vehicle's engine. Keep in mind that fuel is intended to be used at very high altitudes (for flying) and running at consistent engine speed for a sustained period of time"

just wanted to reinforce this. there are so many misconceptions about specialty fuels. that is exactly what they are - specialty fuels. avgas is for airplanes, for race fuel call VP, FL or whoever you prefer. they will know what is best for your ride.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rosshoek.com>www.rosshoek.com</A>

Some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them.
 

Mike_Cohen

Well-Known Member
Posts
440
Reaction
58
John,

Typically race fuel can really pep up performance. However, we have found that the following apply and help customer choose their flavor so to speak.

1) If your vehicle is fuel injected, they usually have oxygen sensors and leaded fuel will eventually kill them. In addition, the lead will also cause excessive heat post combustion and eventually burn up a catalytic converter. F&L makes a 101 Octane Unleaded fuel that works great in late model, computerized fuel injected vehicles. The Import crowd really uses this stuff when they finally get sick of replacing O2 sensors and such.

2) Contrary to popular belief, Avgas can actually be detrimental to your vehicle's engine. Keep in mind that fuel is intended to be used at very high altitudes (for flying) and running at consistent engine speed for a sustained period of time.

3) If you are looking for more performance from pump gas fuel, there are some excellent octane boost / fuel treatments available that actually work. We have found Trick and NOS products work the best and are not too expensive. Trick is usually available at motorcycle shops (Race Ready Products has it too 619-691-9171) and runs about $12.95 for a 20 gallon treatment. The NOS product is available in mass distribution through most automotive parts retailers like AutoZone.

Check out the F&L website <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.fandl.com>www.fandl.com</A> as they have some great info on there about these very topics.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Mike Cohen
Racer X Motorsports, Inc.
www.RacerXms.com {/url]
 

TxPhPrerunner

Well-Known Member
Posts
64
Reaction
0
An important note IMO is that lower compression vehicles (mid 70s-early 90s stock) can loose power on higher octane fuels. Higher compression vehicles ( late 60s - early 70, 90s-present muscle cars and any thing modified for higher compression) will usually benefit from higher octane fuels. The most benefit will be found when using the fuel recommended for your vehicle by a knowledgeable race fuel supplier.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.
 

martininsocal

Well-Known Member
Posts
22,828
Reaction
5
Motors are designed to run with a certaim octane level, period. Higher octane provides no more power while lower octane can cause detonation. Simply running race gas in a stock motor creates no benefits. The difference comes not in the octane, but in the burn attributes of the fuel being used, as Hoeker brought up. Manufacturers make many different blends of fuel to dit the application. Avgas is for use at high altitudes, so it has oxidizers, or oxigen releasing agents to assist the combustion process in an atmosphere with low oxygen content. Remember that perfect combustion requires around 14% oxygen content in the surrounding air for the process to burn clean. Too much oxygen and you get to hot a burn and too little oxygen and you get a dirty, or rich condition. Ever think of what happens if you foul plugs at 15,000 feet?
Pump gas is now designed not to produce power, but to burn cleanly. Race gas is not. This isnot to suggest that all race vehicles burn dirty, but the chemicals and minerals released in teh combustion process would be considered innapropriate in todays smog environs. Perfect combudtion from straight hydrocarbons and air would produce Carbon Dioxide and water. Since we place differnt damands on vehicles, like cold startinga nd running, heavy loads, hill climbs, etc...additives are put into gasoline to counter act the possibility of dirty burning. Winter blend gas is designed to run in the colder climate than summer blend gas.
Along those lines, Manufacturers add other additives to control the burn rate of a fuel to allow a vehicles ignition controls to burn mor of the fuel. the Flame rate is controlled by using additives that ignite at different times, have different expansion rates,a nd differnt heat releasing characteristics. This allows more of the fuel to be consumed during the ignition period. It may not produce the highest power, but is the cleanest burning. There is a lot to fuel. Race gas formulas take advantage of burn rates to increase power. This usually entails stronger internals of the motor to handle the increased pressures produced by the more powerful "explosion". Another issue is compression. Putting more fuel in a smaller area will produce more power when the fuel charge is exploded due to larger fuel charge. The compression ratio is somewhat static, so as long as the fuel you use has a high enough octane to prevent pre-detonation while being compressed, it will provide the same amount of power as a higher octane fuel in the static compression area. Also remember taht compressing a fuel creates heat, which can lead to detonation, so the fuel has additives and a blend that stabilize the fuel charge while being compressed. This prevents detonation. That is where the confussion arises about race fuel maing more power than regular fuel. The characteristics of race fuel allow you to creat a netter power making process through higher compression. But if you don't have a high compression motor, then other advantageous tools can be used, like addition advance in timing, since the fuel has a built in characteristic to prevent detonation.

Sorry this is long, but hope it helps.

Martin

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

TxPhPrerunner

Well-Known Member
Posts
64
Reaction
0
Thanks Martin that is what I was trying to say w/out going into the detail you did.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.
 

John Bitting

Administrator
Posts
11,951
Reaction
2,560
I am having a built 350 small block motor(400+hp for a 78 blazer) and was told its a premium pump gas motor and should not be run on Pemex, So I was thinking it would be cool to take it to a San Felipe race, but they dont have normal supreme unleaded down there and I cant take my own fuel, so that is why I was wondering if I could use some race gas while down there to not hurt my motor with Pemex.
 

ntsqd

Well-Known Member
Posts
2,429
Reaction
27
If you think you're going to be south of the border much with that engine I would tell the engine builder that it has to be able to run on Pemex. After all, you're the one paying the bill.

For a 'limp home' solution you can mix race fuel and low grade pump fuel to get a higher octane, but you are really out there in the "Science Experiment" zone and will have no true idea of what octane you realy have. 50% 105 and 50% 87 may or may not give you 96 octane fuel.

TS

I used to swerve around my halucinations, now I drive right thru them.
 

jeff

Moderator
Posts
7,422
Reaction
314
Braddah,

I wouldn't worry about running Pemex if your engine will be a simple carb/distributor setup. You can always break out the wrench (or crows foot) and adjust the timing back so it'll run on Pemex without detonating. You might lose a butt load of power but it'll run all day long without eating the pistons. Mark the distributor and block so you know where the original location is and a few minutes later you'll be back to full power just as soon as she's running on premium again. Just make sure it's easy to reach and adjust ahead of time... if it isn't easy to adjust because of firewall or tube obstructions I'd suggest investing in a relatively inexpensive MSD (or similar) timing retard system. I have no idea what ignition system you'll be running but it's possible to add a "on the fly" adjustable timing control box to most ignition systems, even GM HEI. You can adjust the timing from the comfort of the drivers seat without ever popping the hood. Once you burn your good gas and fill her up with Pemex you can just back the timing off until it stops pinging. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.msdignition.com/timing_comp.htm>http://www.msdignition.com/timing_comp.htm</A>

Aloha
 

TxPhPrerunner

Well-Known Member
Posts
64
Reaction
0
I'd just Install the cat with flanges like someone on this board is doing. When you take it south put in a strait pipe in place of the cat and run race gas. You should be able to do the opposite of Thom's suggestion and bump up your timing and pick up a few hp. I'd have the builder set the timing on pump then race gas ( on a dyno if possible) write down the settings. Always use a timing light to make the change. Your truck should run excellent. When you get back set your timing to normal, fill up with premium and run a tank to clean out the lead. Then put the cat back in.

I don't live on the edge. I fell over long ago.
 

Mike_Cohen

Well-Known Member
Posts
440
Reaction
58
John,

The Trick and NOS Octane Boost products I mentioned earlier would work great for your interests. I have used both products in carburated and injected vehicles on Pemex in the deepest parts of Mexico without any problems.

If you travel down south or wherever you are concerned about gettign quality fuel, just throw a few bottles in your tool chest and vamonos!

Mike Cohen
Racer X Motorsports, Inc.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.RacerXms.com>www.RacerXms.com</A>
 
Top