Racingtrax for V2R Bikes

Slosh1

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Anyone else racing V2R this year on bikes? Have you seen the rental charge for Racingtrax? It's ridiculous!!! 265 bucks for something that will likely not work for us. I can see that maybe some of the teams may want it and that is fine, but don't make it mandatory. Or just mandatory for the armature teams? Another issue is they are not issuing the mandatory ram mount till registration, bs... let us at least get it situated before the race. Most of us camp at the start and by the time we get there it's dark, not cool for last minute bike modifications.
 

cynicwanderer

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Anyone else racing V2R this year on bikes? Have you seen the rental charge for Racingtrax? It's ridiculous!!! 265 bucks for something that will likely not work for us. I can see that maybe some of the teams may want it and that is fine, but don't make it mandatory. Or just mandatory for the armature teams? Another issue is they are not issuing the mandatory ram mount till registration, bs... let us at least get it situated before the race. Most of us camp at the start and by the time we get there it's dark, not cool for last minute bike modifications.
yup, it's been like that for the last couple of years. at least this year, the unit is supposed to be smaller, so that will be good. maybe they can put a drawing up on their site with the dimensions, which will help us with the planning.
 

Baja Dad

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The unit is MUCH smaller and works GREAT!!!!
yes it should be mandatory!!!
But I feel the $250 should be added to the entry fee so you pay with 1 check.....
So look at it this was It is still much cheaper the SCORE where we have to use the Stella unit.
 

cynicwanderer

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The unit is MUCH smaller and works GREAT!!!!
yes it should be mandatory!!!
But I feel the $250 should be added to the entry fee so you pay with 1 check.....
So look at it this was It is still much cheaper the SCORE where we have to use the Stella unit.
do you have a picture of it or dimensions...
 

RacingTraX

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Anyone else racing V2R this year on bikes? Have you seen the rental charge for Racingtrax? It's ridiculous!!! 265 bucks for something that will likely not work for us..... Another issue is they are not issuing the mandatory ram mount till registration, bs... let us at least get it situated before the race.
We’ve worked closely with BITD and put a lot of time and money into the new bike unit. It will not use a RAM mount for mounting, we will actually be sending out a very versatile cup bracket with instructions suggesting a few different mounting options. The bracket will be mailed out a month before the race so you can take your time and mount it in a way that works best for you. The bracket and shipping is covered in the $265. Also included in the $265 is insurance so if you crash and the unit gets damaged you won’t be held liable.
 

Wicked Al

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The unit is MUCH smaller and works GREAT!!!!
yes it should be mandatory!!!
But I feel the $250 should be added to the entry fee so you pay with 1 check.....
So look at it this was It is still much cheaper the SCORE where we have to use the Stella unit.
Does it give an audible warning when someone is approaching you from behind? Does the sound or frequency change as they get closer?
 

RacingTraX

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Yes, very loud audible when there’s an approaching vehicle behind you. The sound does not change as they get closer. If you hear the buzzer it’s time to get over as soon as possible.
 

Wicked Al

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Yes, very loud audible when there’s an approaching vehicle behind you. The sound does not change as they get closer. If you hear the buzzer it’s time to get over as soon as possible.
How close behind you until it sounds off? Is there a similar sound in the cage vehicle letting them know they are approaching a handlebar? Are these guaranteed to function?
 

RacingTraX

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Great questions.
Trucks will be able to press their push to pass to notifying a bike up to 1200ft out.
No there is nothing that tells a truck that it is specifically a bike they are gaining on.
Nothing in desert racing is guaranteed. However I can tell you that every unit we put on any vehicle gets tested and loaded with new race data points before every race. Unfortunate we can’t design and manufacture every component that we use in our trackers so the reality is if Ling Ling in China had a bad day and a circuit only got half soldered and ends up breaking after a few hundred race miles we just have to understand that electronics aren’t always bullet proof.
Now what RacingTraX has always done is at least offer the opportunity for a racer to tell us if they had issues so that we can look into the problem. If we find it’s something that we (including Ling Ling) did wrong than we’ll offer a credit or refund. You just have to let us know via an email within 7 days of the race.
 

Wicked Al

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Great questions.
Trucks will be able to press their push to pass to notifying a bike up to 1200ft out.
No there is nothing that tells a truck that it is specifically a bike they are gaining on.
Nothing in desert racing is guaranteed. However I can tell you that every unit we put on any vehicle gets tested and loaded with new race data points before every race. Unfortunate we can’t design and manufacture every component that we use in our trackers so the reality is if Ling Ling in China had a bad day and a circuit only got half soldered and ends up breaking after a few hundred race miles we just have to understand that electronics aren’t always bullet proof.
Now what RacingTraX has always done is at least offer the opportunity for a racer to tell us if they had issues so that we can look into the problem. If we find it’s something that we (including Ling Ling) did wrong than we’ll offer a credit or refund. You just have to let us know via an email within 7 days of the race.

There are so many issues wrong with your response. I love your positive attitude, but that will kill people. I am copying you on an email at your info@ address.
 

Wicked Al

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What is an acceptable defect ratio? 1ppm or 1%. 1% means one racer in every race will have a failed system. Do you want to be the one that's not notified when a cage is quickly approaching, can't see you because of the dust and they aren't notified a handlebar is in front of them...what then? And the handlebar is supposed to pay for this pleasure? I don't imagine a refund will be of high value when they are in the hospital and have lost $100k in damages and can't respond in a week to at least get the refund.

Here's the thing, a RacingTrax unit changes the way the race is played. It conveys critical life or death information and the person counting on it does not know when the information given is false or true. It has to be 100% accurate every time. Lives depend on it.

The last Vegas to Reno where RacingTrax was used, what was your defect ratio? That would be 2017.

92 handlebar entries (bikes and quads)
52 appear on the RacingTrax leaderboard
Only 13 were logged through mile 242 of 540 (this is an automatic logging of the unit sending its signal). This means by mile 242, only 13 signals were being received by RacingTrax. 13 of 92 by the halfway point.

4 had finish logs

Only 2 out of 92 had logged all 12 mileage points. 2... Ling Ling was having a very bad day. This isn't negligent, this is gross negligence. Repugnant might also describe it, ineptitude, careless...etc, I need to consult a thesaurus, it was bad and it was squarely on RacingTrax shoulders despite your enthusiasm.

That makes your defect ratio 97.8%. What's your testing protocol to ensure this is any different?

What happened during that race? Wasn't an ATV racer just about killed because he was hit by a TT in the dust? By your comments it doesn't sound like this scenario is covered by your "new" system that you want the handlebars to buy into. Lessons should be learned and adopted.

Whose responsibility is it to pass safely? Isn't that the person doing the passing? Why should the handlebars have to pay for a system that is there to help the cages make safe passes? It isn't needed if it is just handlebars, only needed when the cages are present. Then to top it off, the system doesn't even warn the cages that there is a handlebar in front of them. A lot of things don't add up here. A lot of detail is not being looked at and lives are at stake.

What is the most critical situation? Is it bike on bike? Cage on cage? When conditions are clear?
The most critical situation is when visibility is bad and it is a cage on a handlebar, that's when death happens. Does your system address this situation? Are you confident enough of that that you will ride a handlebar into said situation with a cage behind you at race speeds?

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of an electronic solution is great...once it has been vetted. Race day is not the time to be checking your quality control or its attributes. You are not ready to go to market with this.

I also think your enthusiasm is great, but there are serious points you are over looking. This needs to be scrapped and re-engineered to higher standards than "I hope Ling Ling doesn't have a bad day".

There needs to be brackets and devices available 2 weeks prior to the event with brackets even sooner so they can be designed into the riders system. There needs to be video for all the functions and how to interpret them, you know, training. The only thing that should be happening at contingency is verifying the correct unit for the correct vehicle functions correctly. Contingency is not a prep, train and test day. That is idiocy.

Great concept, very poor execution, scrap it and start over.
 

MarioD

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What is an acceptable defect ratio? 1ppm or 1%. 1% means one racer in every race will have a failed system. Do you want to be the one that's not notified when a cage is quickly approaching, can't see you because of the dust and they aren't notified a handlebar is in front of them...what then? And the handlebar is supposed to pay for this pleasure? I don't imagine a refund will be of high value when they are in the hospital and have lost $100k in damages and can't respond in a week to at least get the refund.

Here's the thing, a RacingTrax unit changes the way the race is played. It conveys critical life or death information and the person counting on it does not know when the information given is false or true. It has to be 100% accurate every time. Lives depend on it.

The last Vegas to Reno where RacingTrax was used, what was your defect ratio? That would be 2017.

92 handlebar entries (bikes and quads)
52 appear on the RacingTrax leaderboard
Only 13 were logged through mile 242 of 540 (this is an automatic logging of the unit sending its signal). This means by mile 242, only 13 signals were being received by RacingTrax. 13 of 92 by the halfway point.

4 had finish logs

Only 2 out of 92 had logged all 12 mileage points. 2... Ling Ling was having a very bad day. This isn't negligent, this is gross negligence. Repugnant might also describe it, ineptitude, careless...etc, I need to consult a thesaurus, it was bad and it was squarely on RacingTrax shoulders despite your enthusiasm.

That makes your defect ratio 97.8%. What's your testing protocol to ensure this is any different?

What happened during that race? Wasn't an ATV racer just about killed because he was hit by a TT in the dust? By your comments it doesn't sound like this scenario is covered by your "new" system that you want the handlebars to buy into. Lessons should be learned and adopted.

Whose responsibility is it to pass safely? Isn't that the person doing the passing? Why should the handlebars have to pay for a system that is there to help the cages make safe passes? It isn't needed if it is just handlebars, only needed when the cages are present. Then to top it off, the system doesn't even warn the cages that there is a handlebar in front of them. A lot of things don't add up here. A lot of detail is not being looked at and lives are at stake.

What is the most critical situation? Is it bike on bike? Cage on cage? When conditions are clear?
The most critical situation is when visibility is bad and it is a cage on a handlebar, that's when death happens. Does your system address this situation? Are you confident enough of that that you will ride a handlebar into said situation with a cage behind you at race speeds?

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of an electronic solution is great...once it has been vetted. Race day is not the time to be checking your quality control or its attributes. You are not ready to go to market with this.

I also think your enthusiasm is great, but there are serious points you are over looking. This needs to be scrapped and re-engineered to higher standards than "I hope Ling Ling doesn't have a bad day".

There needs to be brackets and devices available 2 weeks prior to the event with brackets even sooner so they can be designed into the riders system. There needs to be video for all the functions and how to interpret them, you know, training. The only thing that should be happening at contingency is verifying the correct unit for the correct vehicle functions correctly. Contingency is not a prep, train and test day. That is idiocy.

Great concept, very poor execution, scrap it and start over.
I unknowingly lost the antenna in '17. Silt bed off that did it in. Guess what, while I get personal responsibility for situational awareness, I could not help but be influenced by the silence of the unit, Misleading to say the least and a false sense of security!
 

btshannon

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Maybe you should engineer and market a device that is 100% reliable. There’s gold in them thar hills!!!!
 

vegasloki

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The secret sauce for the app is the sat connectivity, network and ability to post it to a browser in nearly real time. The electronics are pretty basic in terms of circuit design based on what I saw and what the engineers from ROM that explained it to me said. It's the implementation of all the parts that gives it value. The hardware on the bike is the least expensive part relatively speaking. The sat, software and integration is what costs.

David, if you guys aren't able to get reliable electronics from the Pearl River Delta you either aren't using the right contractors or don't want to spend the dough. What I've seen as the weak point is the design and engineering of the mechanical assemblies as in housings, mounts, antenna, display. I'd wonder how many board failures are due to packaging or not being able to survive the harsh environment.
 

RacingTraX

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We do use high end parts, trust me it’s not fun tearing a unit apart to replace a single component just because we wanted to go “cheap”, that’s not the case at all. My comment about Ling Ling was really just a joke, I was trying to make the point that nothing in desert racing is 100% reliable, radios fail, GPS’s fail, and sometimes trucks break in half. Even high end components can fail, desert racing is an incredibly brutal sport. We’ve taken the last two years to learn, test, and re-test to make a unit that is built specifically for the bikes. The mounting bracket will be nothing like they were before and we’ll be sending brackets out a solid month before the race so riders can get them pre-installed before they show up to tech. The function of the unit is built to be simple, if the buzzer goes off, move over because there’s a truck behind you. It’s important to keep in mind though that if the truck doesn’t press their pass button then the buzzer on the bike won’t activate, just the same, if a vehicle stops on the course and doesn’t push their stop alert then there will be no notification for an on-coming vehicle. This is why we say to not rely on this tool because there are just too many scenarios to account for including human error. DRIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS! When people use it correctly it works great. Is it better than nothing? I think so. I try and focus on all the accidents we have helped prevent. I get story after story at the finish line of ever race of how our system alerted a racer and helped them to avoid an accident. I wish it could solve 100% of accidents but so far that perfect silver bullet program hasn’t existed. There’s always pluses and minuses when programming in different features, this is a big reason why we’ve never charged for the push to pass and stop alert features. When we introduced it and then converted every tracker over we didn’t raise our rental fee one dime. I am optimistic for the new bike unit. A lot of thought and work has gone into it.
 

fishd00d

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I truly hope some of you are joking in this thread. You really think you can design some electronic component that will work 100% or the time every time during a long desert race where the unit is getting soaked in water, silt, mud, while having g loads go through it the whole time?

What you can do is make it as best you can and give it the best shot as surviving. Just like your bike. Does it finish every race? Does it ever have a mechanical problem? What a piece of poop if you have ever had one problem with it ever!!

Having trackers on the bikes will save lives. Will they save every life? No. Why are you guys bitching about paying $265 or whatever it is? That’s less than score charged for IRC piece of crap units 10-15 years ago!!! Some people just like to complain no matter what I guess.

I’m glad Racing Trax is at least working on keeping their units up to date and it’s also pretty cool they are on here posting. You guys complain people post less on RDC now days well maybe you can see why. When companies come post on here and people just start slamming them why would they keep posting?

Think about it.
 

MarioD

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I truly hope some of you are joking in this thread. You really think you can design some electronic component that will work 100% or the time every time during a long desert race where the unit is getting soaked in water, silt, mud, while having g loads go through it the whole time?

What you can do is make it as best you can and give it the best shot as surviving. Just like your bike. Does it finish every race? Does it ever have a mechanical problem? What a piece of **** if you have ever had one problem with it ever!!

Having trackers on the bikes will save lives. Will they save every life? No. Why are you guys bitching about paying $265 or whatever it is? That’s less than score charged for IRC piece of crap units 10-15 years ago!!! Some people just like to complain no matter what I guess.

I’m glad Racing Trax is at least working on keeping their units up to date and it’s also pretty cool they are on here posting. You guys complain people post less on RDC now days well maybe you can see why. When companies come post on here and people just start slamming them why would they keep posting?

Think about it.
Poor form to assume folks are so stupid as to expect 100%. No one here is expecting that. I don't know the real numbers but yes, despite the challenges, this type of gear should be able to achieve say 80%+ reliability. If Wicked Al's number's are even close to reality, that is simple Unsatisfactory. People should not be charged $265 to fund R&D, no it should not be free but there is a compromise that can be had to fund the technology as it develops.
 

Rprice

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Poor form to assume folks are so stupid as to expect 100%. No one here is expecting that. I don't know the real numbers but yes, despite the challenges, this type of gear should be able to achieve say 80%+ reliability. If Wicked Al's number's are even close to reality, that is simple Unsatisfactory. People should not be charged $265 to fund R&D, no it should not be free but there is a compromise that can be had to fund the technology as it develops.
Do you even race?
 

RacingTraX

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Talking about 2017, unfortunately there was a manufacturing defect in the mounting bracket and so a crucial piece broke causing units to literally fall off, had they not fallen off the fail rate would not have even come close to those numbers. The same units were used on bikes after we moved to a RAM mount bracket, but the feed back told us that even though the RAM mount held it still wasn’t an ideal set up for the bikes. That’s why we ultimately restarted from scratch. Also in 2017 we not only forgave the cost of the missing units that had fallen off, we also refunded riders rental fees. It was a hard hit. There’s only so much testing you can do on a bench and out in the field before you have to pull the trigger and run it in a race. Even if some of them fail it’s still better than nothing, especially when we can learn so much from each race. For those that it didn’t work for we don’t charge you. Again, we’ve said it from the very beginning that there are so many things that could interfere with a units performance so you should NEVER take unnecessary risks assuming that a piece of electronic will save you. If you’re okay with running nothing then you should be okay with the potential that your tracker “might” have an issue which means you’re ultimately back to square one which is not having a tracker. Most of the time though we’re going to get it right and it will be a tool that helps.
 
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