• Forum membership has its advantages....

RANGERCLASS poll... is this a crazy idea?

Steve Marolda

Well-Known Member
I understand the idea of trying to copy a Jeepspeed type model. I think conceptually it's super, but I suspect that in reality it's going to be a lot more difficult to put together and get participation for. For the small handful of guys that already have an old school 7S Ranger with a four banger, great if you can get a few of them to dust them off and bring them out. But for everyone else, you're having to build a new truck. And I get that in theory the cost is "low", but my guess is that fewer dudes out there have the time and motivation to go find a junkyard Ranger, cage it, build it, etc, just to come race this deal. Especially in the early stages.

Enthusiasm, unfortunately, doesn't necessarily translate to entries.

The other thing missing from this convo that is perhaps still being worked, is that in the Jeepspeed model the "spec" stuff is tied to company support. IF you're able to get companies on board to either subsidize the entry cost or put together "pay out" for winners, you might have more luck getting people to see value in building that new truck. Jeepspeed has done that pretty effectively it seems like.
Thanks for the well thought out response... Yes sponsorship is an important key. My thought is to find somebody who wants to promote their fab shop.... have them build a SPEC suspension kit and name them as the title sponsor. There are many pieces still to be figured out. Maybe we can get a bolt-in cage approved? They are common in sports car racing.... The claimer thing is separate.
 

dan200

#BSF200
Changing existing classes that no one is racing doesn't hurt my feelings. Nor do new classes, if there is a viable reason to believe there would be participation. If these guys can get 5-10 trucks to show up at a few races, who cares? As Steve has proposed, these wouldn't be guys who are already racing in another SNORE/MORE/BITD class. The ONLY place you see true 7S trucks racing any more is in Mexico. So if they can find a way to get guys who aren't currently racing back out in the dirt, more power to them I say.

Regarding "7S Pro"..this was a questionable deal in some ways in the first place and there are literally zero entries now. It was created as the brain child of a person or two, both of whom raced it for a year and are now both gone. So it exists as a class in SNORE that never really had a decent audience and now is defunct. This "new" old truck class wouldn't take anything away from anyone else and re purposing an existing class that no one is likely to ever see value in anyway doesn't hurt anyone in my humble opinion.
Respectfully- NO CHANGING RULES PLEASE. There really is no point. Creating a new class is one thing but modifying a dead or dying class is another. It would be much easier (and more exciting) to offer up this class as the sorta "spec mini truck" class than it wold be to go through all the effort (and drama) of modifying or extinguishing an existing class or a dying class or whatever. Let dinosaurs die. All ya need to make it a class is a number system. Call it 7500 or something.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Respectfully- NO CHANGING RULES PLEASE. There really is no point. Creating a new class is one thing but modifying a dead or dying class is another. It would be much easier (and more exciting) to offer up this class as the sorta "spec mini truck" class than it wold be to go through all the effort (and drama) of modifying or extinguishing an existing class or a dying class or whatever. Let dinosaurs die. All ya need to make it a class is a number system. Call it 7500 or something.
Honestly it semantics in my opinion. Whether SNORE "changes" 7S Pro or deletes it and starts 7S Ranger Spec or whatever...its the exact same thing at the end of the day. The 7S Pro thing was new last year. And the idea was driven by two people essentially. It had a max of like 4 entries at the biggest SNORE race and is now has zero. It's dead. So I understand your point, but I'm saying it's a shells game in my opinion to change or remove that class in favor of this one. At the end of the day the result is the same.

I am 100% confident that no one would have any heartache over "losing" the tradition and spectacle that was 7S Pro....for 5 races.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
One of the problems is that any "Cheap" class will be very inconsistent. If someone is racing a class because its cheap they will quickly find out that there is no cheap racing anymore.

it would be interesting to analyze the data. It seems like class rules have very little to do with average speed or competitiveness. We are not 9th in points because our truck is not fast. We are 9th because we have made a lot of mistakes. I could drive a ford ranger in our races with no mistakes and would have done better. I would guess that's most teams issues, it's not a speed problem. Well maybe the top 3 are fighting for speed but mostly its issues that make the difference.

So I think there needs to be less rules and make it easier to run what you brung. A well built and prepped vehicle with a good driver and team will beat a fast truck any day.

Maybe the answer is limit the average speed so you keep out the ringers. If you finish before the time allowed you get a penalty to help the others catch up. This would benefit the teams that are consistent and don't have problems. Closest to the pre selected finish time wins. That would create some interesting racing, lots of strategy. The focus would be in the team more than the vehicle.

Mike
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
That solo diy cage is the ticket for a builder.

But I think you guys are way underestimating the cost of labor. To be fair the by back would need to be x 3 time the cost of parts in the build.

There is a old tried and tested formula that works for estimating fabrication cost. It’s times the total materials by 3. So if the truck has 10k in parts the labor needs to be 20k. That’s 30k to claim.

Or better yet, don’t the claimer car. Just build or by a 7s ranger and race 7s. What’s wrong with 7s rules?

Seriously. Please let me know what’s better about this and wrong with that.
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like this is something geared more towards the county fair dirt track.

I like the idea too but it just to close to 7s for me.

Do know why 7s are built the way they are? Because that’s what it takes to make them safe and reliable for a open course endurance races that runs for hundreds of miles. I don’t think anything less will survive. Unless it’s for 12 laps at the county fair.
 

ColeA

Well-Known Member
i have an older 7s built in the early 2000's around the mini metal bash. So you want to make it so older 7s can race but some of the rules wont fit these trucks. Bed floors? thatll be next to impossible to achieve in a truck built without it. Good concept needs some fine tuning and could be good. Class 2000 was great and then they made it to where v8's were allowed and they got considerably faster.(not hating but makes it harder for guys like me that have a 4.0) It is pretty similar to 7100 rules and there arent many people building/ racing that class because in my opinion if you are building a new truck they arent going to want to build a limited, underpowered, rough riding truck to pay the same amount to race as a unlimited, faster, smoother truck that they can go send huge jumps and wont hurt
 

BajaFand

Well-Known Member
i have an older 7s built in the early 2000's around the mini metal bash. So you want to make it so older 7s can race but some of the rules wont fit these trucks. Bed floors? thatll be next to impossible to achieve in a truck built without it. Good concept needs some fine tuning and could be good. Class 2000 was great and then they made it to where v8's were allowed and they got considerably faster.(not hating but makes it harder for guys like me that have a 4.0) It is pretty similar to 7100 rules and there arent many people building/ racing that class because in my opinion if you are building a new truck they arent going to want to build a limited, underpowered, rough riding truck to pay the same amount to race as a unlimited, faster, smoother truck that they can go send huge jumps and wont hurt
This is the exact problem with desert racing today and why no one shows up to race production truck classes anymore. Just not sick enough for the ‘gram.
 

BajaFand

Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like this is something geared more towards the county fair dirt track.

I like the idea too but it just to close to 7s for me.

Do know why 7s are built the way they are? Because that’s what it takes to make them safe and reliable for a open course endurance races that runs for hundreds of miles. I don’t think anything less will survive. Unless it’s for 12 laps at the county fair.
To me allowing full floating rear ends and 3” bypasses and race engines was the problem with 7s. These trucks were supposed to be simple and cheap and none of those things are simple or cheap. BITD had a good compromise allowing 4cyl engines to be built and V6 had to remain stock, better than splitting the class like SCORE did. But in the end when Ford backed out of BITD all the the truck racers moved on to other things. BITD used to have amazing production class turnout before Cliff retired.
 

Steve Marolda

Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like this is something geared more towards the county fair dirt track.

I like the idea too but it just to close to 7s for me.

Do know why 7s are built the way they are? Because that’s what it takes to make them safe and reliable for a open course endurance races that runs for hundreds of miles. I don’t think anything less will survive. Unless it’s for 12 laps at the county fair.
Back in the Spencer Low 7s days we did just fine with stock rear axles and front arms.... that's what we had and we made it work and it wasn't hard. There's always going to be a limit to the equipment... there's more crashing now in the Trophy Truck class than any other... that's what separates the drivers... you gotta go slow enough to win.
 

Blackmutt

Well-Known Member
I used to have a stock 2.3 liter with stock 5 speed in my class 2000 Ranger. (Now I have a V-8). I ran 33 inch tires with 6.00 gears. The 2.3 is terrible going up washes. You get can't get out of 2nd gear. Also, you have to floor it in 1st gear to get up some hills and you barely make it. Sometimes you don't make it. The stock 5 speed will last a few years if you're gentle and if there are even that many left out there. I think this class is a poor idea.
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
So let me get this str8.

We are going to start with a truck that the last year they even made them was 1997. so basicaly a 23-30 year old truck. A 4cyl at that. Cool a truck is $1000. But getting the engine, transmission, rear end etc rebuilt will cost about $5000-$7500 but do you really think people will just stick to "stock" NOPE they will be spending $10k plus to do these mods...

Then a cage from the point of view of labor hours is around 3 weeks so 120 hours. 120 hours at a basic shop rate that I don't know anyone who works for $100 per hour is $12,000. THen you have all your parts, shocks, seats, saftly, fuel cell, etc. etc. etc. No matter how you slice it building this in your garage will be $20k+ and having a shop do it if you can even find one would cost $40k plus.

IMO the reason why 7100, 7s, etc all don't do that well is because people who can afford to really race can afford to build a decent truck and to compete you need a $50k+ truck.

IMO the best class to start racing would be a bone stock RZR/Sidexside etc. class. Ruels are BONE STOCK only mods is a cage with seats and harnesses. This means you go buy a $20k RZR and bolt on a cage and seats with belts NOTHING ELSE....

The truck you are talking about wouldent even make it through Barstow 2 laps. And if it did it would average 20-25mph.

I say you go buy this truck and build it. Go enter it in the 1450 class and test it out. Then come back and let us know how it did.

SOrry to be such a downer but this dead horse has been beat and beat and beat.
 

Steve Marolda

Well-Known Member
So let me get this str8.

We are going to start with a truck that the last year they even made them was 1997. so basicaly a 23-30 year old truck. A 4cyl at that. Cool a truck is $1000. But getting the engine, transmission, rear end etc rebuilt will cost about $5000-$7500 but do you really think people will just stick to "stock" NOPE they will be spending $10k plus to do these mods...

Then a cage from the point of view of labor hours is around 3 weeks so 120 hours. 120 hours at a basic shop rate that I don't know anyone who works for $100 per hour is $12,000. THen you have all your parts, shocks, seats, saftly, fuel cell, etc. etc. etc. No matter how you slice it building this in your garage will be $20k+ and having a shop do it if you can even find one would cost $40k plus.

IMO the reason why 7100, 7s, etc all don't do that well is because people who can afford to really race can afford to build a decent truck and to compete you need a $50k+ truck.

IMO the best class to start racing would be a bone stock RZR/Sidexside etc. class. Ruels are BONE STOCK only mods is a cage with seats and harnesses. This means you go buy a $20k RZR and bolt on a cage and seats with belts NOTHING ELSE....

The truck you are talking about wouldent even make it through Barstow 2 laps. And if it did it would average 20-25mph.

I say you go buy this truck and build it. Go enter it in the 1450 class and test it out. Then come back and let us know how it did.

SOrry to be such a downer but this dead horse has been beat and beat and beat.
[/QUOTE
So let me get this str8.

We are going to start with a truck that the last year they even made them was 1997. so basicaly a 23-30 year old truck. A 4cyl at that. Cool a truck is $1000. But getting the engine, transmission, rear end etc rebuilt will cost about $5000-$7500 but do you really think people will just stick to "stock" NOPE they will be spending $10k plus to do these mods...

Then a cage from the point of view of labor hours is around 3 weeks so 120 hours. 120 hours at a basic shop rate that I don't know anyone who works for $100 per hour is $12,000. THen you have all your parts, shocks, seats, saftly, fuel cell, etc. etc. etc. No matter how you slice it building this in your garage will be $20k+ and having a shop do it if you can even find one would cost $40k plus.

IMO the reason why 7100, 7s, etc all don't do that well is because people who can afford to really race can afford to build a decent truck and to compete you need a $50k+ truck.

IMO the best class to start racing would be a bone stock RZR/Sidexside etc. class. Ruels are BONE STOCK only mods is a cage with seats and harnesses. This means you go buy a $20k RZR and bolt on a cage and seats with belts NOTHING ELSE....

The truck you are talking about wouldent even make it through Barstow 2 laps. And if it did it would average 20-25mph.

I say you go buy this truck and build it. Go enter it in the 1450 class and test it out. Then come back and let us know how it did.

SOrry to be such a downer but this dead horse has been beat and beat and beat.
I was going to ask if Camburg would like to be involved, but it doesn't sound like it. You do know JEEPSPEED started with just a bunch of old worn-out Cherokee's, right?
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
I was going to ask if Camburg would like to be involved, but it doesn't sound like it. You do know JEEPSPEED started with just a bunch of old worn-out Cherokee's, right?

I don’t think jerry is interested in developing a Spec class truck for free. If you want to really make it hurt go on down there to his shop and slap a 6 inch high stack of Bengies down on his desk to look at then pick it up leave and give that stack to Geoff at giant to do the spec design. Or solo.

If you do that it will hurt him. Until then it’s just talk on rdc.
 
Steve:

Still plenty of old worn-out Cherokees, right?

Why not just race those, instead of quarter century old minitrucks?

BTW, when Jeepspeed debuted, new XJ Cherokees were still being marketed, even if just barely.

Why would someone build/modify a vehicle for this proposed class?

What's the payoff, emotionally or financially?

Build cost always has seemed a small proportion of a race budget, especially in the more stock classes like 7s, 11, etc.

I could imagine many hours of midnight oil burned between events for little return. :(
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Jerry and Camburg have supported this kind of stuff in various versions for years. At minimal if any financial benefit to them. Pretty sure they aren't sending their kids to college thanks to the input and help they provided to 7100 over the last few years, lol. Its not really about the money. What he's saying is the realistic side of this idea. It's a great idea and it would be rad to see a bunch of old school 7S guys or even new school guys building up some bare bones trucks for desert races...like a desert version of stock mini. But the reality is the idea of a "spec" class in this regard is going to be really difficult. Finding guys who want to either dust off trucks they haven't touched in 20 years or go dig out 20 year old trucks from the classifieds and try to make them marginally survivable is going to be a tough sell in my opinion. And at the end of the day, building that truck even to a simple level is still going to have some significant cost involved. I appreciate the idea and the sentiments but executing something like this in reality is pretty difficult for a variety of reasons.

You'd almost be better off joining forces with the Gambler500 guys and taking your stockish Rangers out on runs to play with them.
 
Top