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RANGERCLASS poll... is this a crazy idea?

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
Shop costs dude. Don’t forget rent, power, work comp, insurance on the shop. You know that overhead thingy that business like camburg have.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
I think the point remains that even if you do this yourself, the cost will add up pretty quickly. And if all you're doing is taking that 25-30 year old Ranger and caging it and going racing, I'm not sure you're going to get much "fun" out of it. At least not on a "real" race course. If you're running a 25 year old 4banger Ranger with original motor/transmission, 31s, and coilovers....BAP, RATR, Jean, and Barstow aren't going to be too much fun. Even for a single loop. Maybe I'm naive but I don't think you're going to build a simple, bare bones truck that is going to be marginally resilient to get around any current race course with any moderate degree of speed.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
I think the point remains that even if you do this yourself, the cost will add up pretty quickly. And if all you're doing is taking that 25-30 year old Ranger and caging it and going racing, I'm not sure you're going to get much "fun" out of it. At least not on a "real" race course. If you're running a 25 year old 4banger Ranger with original motor/transmission, 31s, and coilovers....BAP, RATR, Jean, and Barstow aren't going to be too much fun. Even for a single loop. Maybe I'm naive but I don't think you're going to build a simple, bare bones truck that is going to be marginally resilient to get around any current race course with any moderate degree of speed.
All the guys in those slow limited classes must be having a horrible time and hate those races, probably why they get the most limited entries there.... Of course I’m just giving you a hard time about the fun thing.

Fun doesn’t always mean fast. Ive talked to some guys that said racing a class 11 in baja was more fun than racing a 1 car or factory motorcycle, but everyone is different. Sometimes a class isnt just about seeing how long you can keep the pedal pushed to the floor, but the logical and rational decision making processes to keep the car alive for an entire race while still being faster than the other competitors in class.

And fwiw, UTV’s don’t cost $20k anymore, they haven’t since 2017. A new base price UTV to start from starts at $28k for a RZR and $27.5k for the CanAm. And lets face it, neither of the other manufacturers have won a desert race so they aren’t competitive in long distance stuff.

UTV’s are fun but reality is they cost more than a 1600 car to race and most teams are done racing after 3 years because of the debt they accrued with how easy it is to finance and charge everything on a UTV build.

The Ranger class thing could be a cool class if it was like a 1600 car in truck form. Limit it to 6 cyclinders, stock width and mounting locations, minor motor upgrades and a transmission that was available in that truck and it might take off. If you can make a cult type following that love the class and stick around longer than a social media lifespan it might be successful. Build it to your rules, race in sportsman or in class 2000, and when others follow you will have your own class.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
All the guys in those slow limited classes must be having a horrible time and hate those races, probably why they get the most limited entries there.... Of course I’m just giving you a hard time about the fun thing.

Fun doesn’t always mean fast. Ive talked to some guys that said racing a class 11 in baja was more fun than racing a 1 car or factory motorcycle, but everyone is different. Sometimes a class isnt just about seeing how long you can keep the pedal pushed to the floor, but the logical and rational decision making processes to keep the car alive for an entire race while still being faster than the other competitors in class.

And fwiw, UTV’s don’t cost $20k anymore, they haven’t since 2017. A new base price UTV to start from starts at $28k for a RZR and $27.5k for the CanAm. And lets face it, neither of the other manufacturers have won a desert race so they aren’t competitive in long distance stuff.

UTV’s are fun but reality is they cost more than a 1600 car to race and most teams are done racing after 3 years because of the debt they accrued with how easy it is to finance and charge everything on a UTV build.

The Ranger class thing could be a cool class if it was like a 1600 car in truck form. Limit it to 6 cyclinders, stock width and mounting locations, minor motor upgrades and a transmission that was available in that truck and it might take off. If you can make a cult type following that love the class and stick around longer than a social media lifespan it might be successful. Build it to your rules, race in sportsman or in class 2000, and when others follow you will have your own class.
I have one of those "slow" trucks. I previously made the same argument, that speed is not the only factor and that it is and would be fun as long as you have good, competitive racing. BUT...I've turn a few laps in Jean. And I've been around Barstow a time or two in my day. My point remains that taking a basically stock suspension Ranger that's 30 years old and has 31s and coilovers around any of the true race courses currently being used in those areas would not be "fun" to the vast majority of people. We have a long travel leaf springer and there are sections in Jean for the SNORE and Mint course that are not that fun. We have 35s, 16" of travel, and 3.0 bypasses (and coilovers). I personally would have ZERO desire to turn a single lap around the Mint course in a truck that was basically stock and frankly, it would probably take us 4 hours to do that single lap.
 

green787

Well-Known Member
I've never understood limiting suspension.... Keeping as stock configuration... fine... but to limit the travel in inches is completely stupid.... There should be three classes..... 4 cyl unlimited (stock design), 6 cyl unlimited (stock design), 8 or more cyl unlimited (Trophy Trucks and buggies).... Building 4 cylinder racing engines is fun.... being passed by a wrecking yard V6 that sounds like a Ferrari running in your same class was NOT fun.....

toyota truck 002.jpgtoyota truck 004.jpg
 

Josh 8

Well-Known Member
I've never understood limiting suspension.... Keeping as stock configuration... fine... but to limit the travel in inches is completely stupid.... There should be three classes..... 4 cyl unlimited (stock design), 6 cyl unlimited (stock design), 8 or more cyl unlimited (Trophy Trucks and buggies).... Building 4 cylinder racing engines is fun.... being passed by a wrecking yard V6 that sounds like a Ferrari running in your same class was NOT fun.....

View attachment 204650View attachment 204651


Good Post^^^^^^
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
tl;dr no way $12k in labor for a fair price for this cage, scroll to end to see summary for reasonable cage costs

$8 k total with about $2500 in padding and perception of value from a big name.

Fitting the Solo cage right around $5-6k.

This really is a $5-6k cage.
I said $120hr at a basic rate for a "real" shop. There are plenty of "shops" that will do it for $60-$80 an hour. This puts the cage in the price range you are talking about. But these are the shops we always read about that "owe" people money or "take way to long" etc.

Now even you agree you can build a "basic" cage for $5-6k. Now go buy the truck, rebuild all the parts, re-gear the rearend and install the locker, buy a drive shaft, fuel cell, fuel filters, fuel pumps, plumbing, shocks, front and rear springs, seats, belts, window nets, gps, race radio, air filter system, exhaust, lights, safety equipment, and keep gpoing on this list. Then add up what this very basic slow truck would cot.


Now to all reading this.

I am not here to argue about it. I have sat at tables and helped come up with great classes like "Trophy Lite" (note the attachment of my renering from 2007) and the new 7100 and did I mention 1450 and 6100?

I know what it takes to build these trucks. Camburg has been in business since 1997 and we have years of experience building these trucks before Camburg. Think LaRana where all the low dollar guys raced. I have heled teams work all night long for free and worked with plenty of people living their dream on a major budget. Martin Glass, Brady Helm, Bob Miller BMP, Mark Growe, etc...

Trust me when I tell you this. Your idea is not a bad one, its an old one that is out dated. Today people want to go fast as possible for their budget. People do not want to race bone stock 4cyl trucks around a rough desert.

If people want to build a truck like this I suggest you try your idea and race in a class where it fits. 1450, 2000, 7100. Then if it works cool if not then you can atleast say you tried it and upgrade it from there.
 

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jeepspeedcom

Well-Known Member
This thread has been an interesting read. While the concept may be sound Jerry is correct in his opinion. Not wanting to hijack the thread we have been down this road. We started the idea with Jeepspeed 20 years ago. The good teams have developed their race cars and we have winning Class 1700 six cylinder 250 ci Jeeps on 33" tires with all with same short travel suspension averaging over 40 mph and top speeds 90+ with a tail wind. At the Mint 400 Saturday 2 lap race with 66 entries Jeepspeeds were the first 3 overall and 5 in top ten. At Silver State 300 and Vegas to Reno we had over 50% finishing rate. Our winners times would put them about 4th in Trophy lite. These numbers don't come easy but from dedication and years of continued improvement. The other point to consider is who is going to enforce your rules fairly, strongly and independently. Who is going to run an organization. It takes a lot of time. So here is the plug. Look at several 1700 Jeepspeeds on classifieds where some teams are moving up to our unlimited classes. You can buy dialed in championship winning race cars for under $25K that probably cost two to three times more to build and develop. Just saying. We wish good luck with your idea but its going to be tough.
 

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J Prich

Well-Known Member
This thread has been an interesting read. While the concept may be sound Jerry is correct in his opinion. Not wanting to hijack the thread we have been down this road. We started the idea with Jeepspeed 20 years ago. The good teams have developed their race cars and we have winning Class 1700 six cylinder 250 ci Jeeps on 33" tires with all with same short travel suspension averaging over 40 mph and top speeds 90+ with a tail wind. At the Mint 400 Saturday 2 lap race with 66 entries Jeepspeeds were the first 3 overall and 5 in top ten. At Silver State 300 and Vegas to Reno we had over 50% finishing rate. Our winners times would put them about 4th in Trophy lite. These numbers don't come easy but from dedication and years of continued improvement. The other point to consider is who is going to enforce your rules fairly, strongly and independently. Who is going to run an organization. It takes a lot of time. So here is the plug. Look at several 1700 Jeepspeeds on classifieds where some teams are moving up to our unlimited classes. You can buy dialed in championship winning race cars for under $25K that probably cost two to three times more to build and develop. Just saying. We wish good luck with your idea but its going to be tough.
Well hold on now...I don't disagree with you in principle but some of the numbers aren't apples to apples here. Bravo to Jeepspeed, great class and a lot of bang for your buck. No question. But it seems to me you're mixing apples and oranges a bit here. Yes 3 Jeepspeeds where in the Top 3 overall on the 2 lap heat Saturday at the Mint...but those weren't 1700s. The 1700 and honestly probably 2700 are comparable to what we'd be talking about here with the Rangers. Using 4700 and 3700 class results to prove that a limited/stockish truck should perform that way is not really a fair comparison.

If we're going to use data to make points here, we should be looking at 1700 speeds and honestly probably more likely 2700 speeds as the bench mark because those classes are a lot more in line with what's being proposed here.

***EDIT - Or 7300...as another fair comparison. And frankly, I'm not even sure it would be fair to compare the Colorado to what these guys are talking about building here.
 

jeepspeedcom

Well-Known Member
OK. I stand corrected . Class 1700s were 7th, 12th 13th and more out of 66 starters. Still pretty darn good. The leading Class 1700s now are amazingly quick for staying inside out tight rules often on par our modified classes. Also we impound and post race tech our podium teams including motors. Ranger class would need to do something similar.
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
OK. I stand corrected . Class 1700s were 7th, 12th 13th and more out of 66 starters. Still pretty darn good. The leading Class 1700s now are amazingly quick for staying inside out tight rules often on par our modified classes. Also we impound and post race tech our podium teams including motors. Ranger class would need to do something similar.
Yeah for sure. Don't get me wrong, wasn't intended as an attack or criticism. Having raced 7100 for a few years, we've found ourselves probably right around the pace of the top 1700s. And we've got long travel front ends, 35s", big shocks, etc. So based on that, I am inclined to think that a stock Ranger on 33s or less with single coil overs all around likely isn't going to race that pace.

And I totally agree with the rule thing. The idea of having a fun, simple class that people don't take too seriously is delightful. The reality once put in to practice becomes a lot less Utopian, lol. Without someone strictly enforcing the rules, there is always going to be at least one person who isn't content with just racing for "fun" and wants to start pushing boundaries.
 

Steve Marolda

Well-Known Member
This thread has been an interesting read. While the concept may be sound Jerry is correct in his opinion. Not wanting to hijack the thread we have been down this road. We started the idea with Jeepspeed 20 years ago. The good teams have developed their race cars and we have winning Class 1700 six cylinder 250 ci Jeeps on 33" tires with all with same short travel suspension averaging over 40 mph and top speeds 90+ with a tail wind. At the Mint 400 Saturday 2 lap race with 66 entries Jeepspeeds were the first 3 overall and 5 in top ten. At Silver State 300 and Vegas to Reno we had over 50% finishing rate. Our winners times would put them about 4th in Trophy lite. These numbers don't come easy but from dedication and years of continued improvement. The other point to consider is who is going to enforce your rules fairly, strongly and independently. Who is going to run an organization. It takes a lot of time. So here is the plug. Look at several 1700 Jeepspeeds on classifieds where some teams are moving up to our unlimited classes. You can buy dialed in championship winning race cars for under $25K that probably cost two to three times more to build and develop. Just saying. We wish good luck with your idea but its going to be tough.
Hi Clive good to hear from you, thanks for joining in! This is Steve from Motowest, the GasGas dealer across the street from Don A Vee. JEEPSPEED was all I was thinking about when I dreamed up this RANGERCLASS thing so your opinion and ideas are greatly appreciated….You and I have been hovering around the same area for awhile… your son had one of our GasGas Trials bikes and we met when I was working on Gary Turner’s funny car, you were prepping a camper truck for some trip or expedition. I also raced a full-size T&J Cherokee for Gene Jacobsen... RANGERCLASS was born from the fact that our sport has “orphaned” so many 7 & 7s racers and fans I thought maybe there’s something we can do. And I do know how big a job it is, I hoped if the interest grew I could find some volunteers along the way. I’m also beginning to see the biggest obstacle may be the desert itself. The courses are just so used up the mini-trucks are going to have a tough time of it. That’s why we’re also kicking around the idea of a short course / stadium series and I think that’s the better way to go. There’s lots of guys looking to dust off their cars and trucks and get racing again, we even have some willing to build new for a stadium series. The Lucas series with their high-speed sweeping turns is so far removed from what MTEG was doing I think there’s room for another series…. maybe we use Glen Helen as our home track. It’s even being reported that the City Of Orange Parks Department is talking about reopening Saddleback Park. Imagine the Baja De Saddleback race happening again… how incredible would that be!
 
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BarrelRoll

Well-Known Member
Here's my short thought: I've been thinking about building a budget race truck for a while and looking at options in the 10-20k parts range with my self doing the labor not put into the budget and looking at all the options. You aren't building something for $10k that will finish races and $20k might do it, $30k it a lot more likely.

#1: Race courses have gotten much more torn up than 20 years ago, heck even 10 years ago you still had stock class trucks showing up, now you almost never do. Minimum speeds needed to finish in time are pretty high and any down time pretty much is a DNF for a slow truck these days. Small shocks, stock hubs and axles are going to take the fun away when they cause DNF's and you are having to have a fresh set every race or a bunch of spares on hand. Little tired under powered trucks will be stuck after the big trucks come through

#2: Jeepspeed is the best bang for the buck when it comes to budget truck classes hands down. They have reduced entry fees and good turn outs every race. The 1700 trucks are modified enough to finish races but not overly modified to the point it drives the budget through the roof. The rules get rid of some of the need a lot of money every race items that exist on most stock class trucks. Suspension is basically to the point where you can't "build your own kit" but you have lots of options and the shocks/ bump limits help keep the budget in check. The only mandatory parts are tires and wheels which I believe covers some of the reduced entry fees. You aren't stuck with 1 suspension builder or a mandatory cage kit which gives you some options to budget/ geometry/ you aren't SOL if the only builder goes belly up.

#3: It's going to take a lot of convincing to get working stiffs to spend $20k building a truck for a class that might or might not happen. If it does happen there's a good chance of only a couple trucks showing up, it fizzling out in a year or 2, and your truck not really able to compete in another class without a lot more work. This class needs a class it can fall into when someone wants to race a race in a series without this class.

Here's the long thought: There's room for another budget truck class/ series

Here's what I think it needs to have to be successful
-It needs to be cheap to build
-Cheap to prep and strong enough to last without high dollar parts or a trip to the junk yard every race
-Allow guys to turn prerunners and existing race trucks such as 7S trucks into race trucks with rules that are open enough to allow trucks to race but not blow the budget through the roof
-Open to enough makes/ models so a guy a can build a truck he has sitting in the driveway or his prerunner and not be limited to having to find a pretty specific truck or being SOL because they cut off stock suspension mounts or have glass fenders
-Limited enough so you aren't racing against $100k prerunners or full on fiberglass bodied race trucks with rules to keep everyone on the same playing field


A title sponsor/ series organization like jeepspeed to enforce rules and bring in some money to reduce entry fees would be nice but someone would have to step up to do it.


Here's my thoughts on the rules to allow a ton of trucks to come out to race. Spending a ton of money really won't have much of an advantage since you are limited on tire size, suspension travel, and power. These rules should allow 1700 jeep speeds, ultra 4 stock class and a lot of 7s, stock mini, and 6 cylinder class 3's to come out of moth balls. Prep should be cheapish and with the suspension limits it should give the DIY guys a lot of options. You could write the rules to allow 5-1600 bugs and even class 6 cars but I didn't add them in this go around. They are somewhat based off of 1700 jeepspeed with a year limit of 2004 and older. After 2004 motors got a lot more powerful and trucks got a lot more complex.

Rules summary: 2004 and older Trucks and SUV. 14" front/ 16" rear travel limit, single 2.5" coil over, 2.5" bypass or 3.0 smooth body shocks with open suspension/ shock mounting points, leaf spring/ factory coil rear. Naturally aspirated 4 and 6 cylinder motors only, may swap in a 2004 or older motor from same make/ model. Stock transmission or TH400 allowed. Full floating rear axle allowed. 35" tires max. Steel cab and doors.

Here's the rules, still needs some tweaking and some loop holes closed/ things could be changed:

4 & 6 Cylinder Open Production Class

Open to all mid and full size naturally aspirated 4 and 6 cylinder 2wd and 4wd truck and SVU's 2004 model year and older and sold in North America. Vehicle must maintain same year frame, body, suspension type, engine, and transmission combination as was orginally delivered unless stated

Suspension
-Maximum 14" travel front, 16" travel rear
-Must have same design front suspension as was originally delivered, A-arm must maintain Arm's, I-Beam must maintain I-Beams, Straight axle must maintain straight axle. Mounting points are open. Front springs may be converted from leaf spring, coil spring, or torsion bar to coil over shock, suspension joints, links and spindles open
-Rear must maintain same concept suspension as was originally delivered, if originally delivered with leaf springs they must be retained mounting over or under the axle is allowed, if originally delivered with coil springs coil springs must be retained or the vehicle may be converted to leaf springs, rear coilover shocks not permitted unless originally equipped. Coil spring rear suspension links may be of any material, suspension joints and mounting points are open. Rear leaf spring mounting points are open. Rear independent suspension only allowed if factory equipped
-Single 2.0 diameter air bump stop allowed per corner
-Front shocks may be either a single 2.5" coilover, 2.5" bypass, or 3" smooth body shock per corner
-Rear shocks single 2.5" bypass or 3.0 smooth body shock per corner
-Shock mounting points front and rear are open, remote mounted shocks allowed
-Track width is open front and rear
-Secondary suspension not allowed

Steering
-Steering must maintain same concept as originally manufactured, racks may not be replaced with steering boxes or visa versa
-Steering box and rack mounting point locations are open
-Steering linkages must be the same general concept as originally produced, no remote pivots unless originally delivered from the manufacturer with remote pivots
-Aftermarket steering racks and boxes allowed
-Steering pump is open
-Hydraulic assist rams not permitted

Tires and wheels
-Maximum 35" diameter tires
-Bead lock wheels not allowed

Brakes
-1 Caliper per wheel

Axle
-Full floating rear axle allowed, maximum 1.75" diameter 40 spline axles, no aluminum 3rd member unless originally delivered by the manufacturer.

Engine
-2.999 CI and under 7S rules
-Maximum 4.3 liter V6 stock internals engine allowed in that year, make and model of truck except pre 1997 F150 and Full size bronco may run stock 4.9L I-6 engine, Pre 1988 Chevrolet and GMC full size truck may run stock 4.8L I-6 engine
-Engine must match year, make, and model of frame and body with the following exceptions. An engine from the same make and model maybe swapped into an older or newer truck, newest engine to be swapped into an older model must be produced in model year 2004 or older year model trucks. Exceptions: T-100 and pre 1994 Toyota pickup may swap in Toyota Tacoma motor. Example a 1986 Ford Ranger may swap in a 2002 Ford Ranger engine, 1987 toyota pickup may swap in a 2002 Tacoma 4 or 6 cylinder engine. Engines offered only in SUV's may not be swapped into trucks and engines offered only in trucks may not be swapped into SUV's
-No v8 engines
-No turbo charged 4 or 6 cylinders allowed
-No diesel engines
-Front mounted radiators only
-Air filter open
-Exhaust open

Transmission
-Factory automatic or manual transmission must be retained or may swap in 3 speed automatic or 3,4, or 5 speed manual transmission. Example a TH400 transmission may be swapped into any truck or a 5 speed manual may be swapped into any truck
-Maximum 3 speed automatic transmission unless originally equipped with more gears and then must maintain the factory transmission, example XJ jeep cherokee may either swap in a 3 speed automatic or retain original 4 speed Aw4 automatic
-Maximum 5 speed manual transmission unless originally equipped with more forward gears and then must retain factory transmission or swap in 5 speed manual.
-Transmission internals and cooling open
-No under/ over drives allowed


Body
-Must maintain steel cab, functional steel doors, factory firewall, and factory floor from firewall to back of front seats. Firewall may be modified for tire clearance, transmission tunnel may be modified to allow for transmission swaps
-Stock body mounting location +/- 2"
-Updating or back dating of front clips and box sides/ fenders allowed, midsize trucks and SUV may update to full size clips, no year limits on updating or back dating
-Box floors not required
-Must have stock appearing grill
-Tailgates not required
-Hoods, fenders, tail gates may be of any material.
-Inner fenders not required

Chassis
-Long bed vehicles may shorten wheelbase to short bed wheelbase, wheelbase combination must be available in a factory production combination for that year, make and model
-Vehicles under 104.5" wheelbase may stretch wheel base to 104.5"
-Factory wheelbase +/- 2" for all vehicles over 104.5"
-No material removal allowed, frames may be reinforced


I think those rules do a pretty good mix of taking Steve's idea and allowing you to build a budget truck that will finish races while allowing existing trucks like jeep speeds to compete. I haven't tired to build one on paper for $20k but I'm think it might be doable and $30k definitely should be. You could have a fab shop build one and hit $100k but really won't be any more competitive than some kid who built one out of his garage since everyone is limited in wheel travel, tire size, and power. It leaves a lot of give and take up to the builders to decide which platform and how much reinventing of the wheel they want to do. A guy might be able to build one for $10k with used parts and finish races.
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
i raced 1450 class, it was just as fun as js, all it had to be was ' metal cab', doors, ect.I didnt have a chance against the f150 v8 long travel guy, didnt care, im racing for the sport of it, not my livelihood
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Might be easier to make 1450 two classes with mini trucks and full size. I bet there are a lot of smaller 1450 trucks that would rather just race with other smaller trucks.

Seems like 1450 has a lot of trucks already.

Mike
 

jon coleman

Well-Known Member
just put Every 1450 class in one big pot& give bonus time to handicapped cars, ie my pos 4 banger gets a head start over v8 monster truck, like australian pursuit, nothing more exciting than having rg commin' up on yo 6 at parker in a HI speed section, kudos to his helo pilot for the heads up signal;)in theory, aussy pursuit all cars finish at the same time, ie cls 11 gets head start over cls one,based on average mph for cls, quite simple .11&one class for example only....
 
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