Refueling - Spraying Fuel

ndvalium

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On the PLUS Side - Fuel Man did NOT panic when the Red Head started to spray. He quickly got the hose away from the truck and the right rear tire carrier also quickly noticed that the fuel intake receptacle was spraying and started to reset the disconnect. Fuel man hustled back to the truck and finished reseating the valve.

On the Minus Side - I did nor see ANY type of Fire Repression equipment in the pit. The tire carrier did not have on a Fire Protection suit.

ALL teams need to have multiple Fire Extinguishers available during refueling and outfit their crews in proper protective clothing. I totally realize that
there is a large expense involved in outfitting your Pit Crew, but it sure is cheaper than Med-Evac helicopters, Hospital and Burn Care Rehab and possible
funeral expenses for a racing friend.






















reefueler

At 38 seconds you can see a crew member in shorts and t shirt had his hand on a 20lb dry chemical extinguisher after the fuel started to spray out. He is standing on the drivers side.
 

y2kbaja

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In this scenario, fuel is spraying from two areas, no fire, is there something that CAN be put on the fuel/areas to possibly prevent fire at this point? Indy cars spray some jizz on the car after fueling for this reason. As an amature class 9 racer, what can we have on hand in case we spill fuel on the car or person? We have the tarp on the ground so the enviro doesn't soak up the gas (even though we just toss some sand on it to soak it up).
 

jon coleman

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water is the ' jizz' it instantly dilutes to non flammable level the alcohol ( methonol-e85 currently)race fuel in indycar, most stuff is allready avaliable, ground mats to soak up spills, fire extinguisher- fueler bibs& just plain old common sense to Not Freak out and panic when there is raw fuel or worse, panic mode has made many a fuel fire worse....
 
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EL ROMAN

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I like the views and replies solely for the fact that each person is learning from the video. I sure have, and I agree the required PPE has improved since the video. It really goes back to training people to operate the equipment, that goes for the guy operating the PP down to the person with a fire extinguisher in his/her hand.
 

jcorsico

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My two cents:

1) The problem is the redhead valve. I have two of them in my garage. The design is not robust. Too easy to jam or cut seals, like seems to be what happened here.

2) You need to replace the redhead with a better design, something like this: FIA approved refueling pit stop system for motorsports SAF - Stäubli This is a modern design that has gone through a lot of testing. Here is another modern design: https://www.krontec.de/katalog/pdf/Kapitel09_Betankungssystem/09-RFC-Kupplung.pdf

3) It would be very expensive to implement the above Staubli / Krontec system at every pit stop across every team. A much cheaper approach is to mandate a minimum time for filling. E.g., if you decide to add fuel to the truck, you have to pit for at least 90 seconds. That would allow people to move more slowly with the Redhead, minimizing the chance of spills.

4) As Jerry noted, the fuel cell did not vent properly. I don't know why not. We can guess as to the tank's construction, but it's probably what Jerry said about the rollover valve being sucked shut. Everyone should use one of these flapper valves on their tank. Dual Safety Flapper Valve | Aero Tec Laboratories This flapper is specifically designed for dual hose refilling, where one hose injects fuel while the other hose vents. The flowing fuel holds the vent open, making it impossible to pressurize the tank. ATL US does not stock these flappers. I don't know why not. I had to buy mine from ATL UK.
 

Jerry Zaiden

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My two cents:

1) The problem is the redhead valve. I have two of them in my garage. The design is not robust. Too easy to jam or cut seals, like seems to be what happened here.

2) You need to replace the redhead with a better design, something like this: FIA approved refueling pit stop system for motorsports SAF - Stäubli This is a modern design that has gone through a lot of testing. Here is another modern design: https://www.krontec.de/katalog/pdf/Kapitel09_Betankungssystem/09-RFC-Kupplung.pdf

3) It would be very expensive to implement the above Staubli / Krontec system at every pit stop across every team. A much cheaper approach is to mandate a minimum time for filling. E.g., if you decide to add fuel to the truck, you have to pit for at least 90 seconds. That would allow people to move more slowly with the Redhead, minimizing the chance of spills.

4) As Jerry noted, the fuel cell did not vent properly. I don't know why not. We can guess as to the tank's construction, but it's probably what Jerry said about the rollover valve being sucked shut. Everyone should use one of these flapper valves on their tank. Dual Safety Flapper Valve | Aero Tec Laboratories This flapper is specifically designed for dual hose refilling, where one hose injects fuel while the other hose vents. The flowing fuel holds the vent open, making it impossible to pressurize the tank. ATL US does not stock these flappers. I don't know why not. I had to buy mine from ATL UK.
I really like that Dual Safety Valve!!
 

MTPyle

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The problem with making everyone wait 90 seconds for a fuel stop is that nobody will enforce it so the newbs will stop for 90 seconds and the rest of the teams will only take 30.

don’t make a rule that you can not enforce.

Mike
 

jcorsico

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The problem with making everyone wait 90 seconds for a fuel stop is that nobody will enforce it so the newbs will stop for 90 seconds and the rest of the teams will only take 30.

don’t make a rule that you can not enforce.

Mike
It's probably more enforceable than you think. Pitting in Baja often happens in view of spectators / other teams, and everyone has a cell phone video camera these days. If you set the penalty for a violation as a disqualification, it's going to take a lot of balls to violate the rule. Anyone can be filming your violation... Post to instagram... DQ.

For BITD, all the pitting happens in designated areas. Easy to monitor. Every team will film every other team!

Now, a pit in the middle of nowhere, at night - I agree it's not enforceable for that pit. But for most pitting, especially pits with spectators around (the most risky), I think it's enforceable.
 

cjohnson

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It's probably more enforceable than you think. Pitting in Baja often happens in view of spectators / other teams, and everyone has a cell phone video camera these days. If you set the penalty for a violation as a disqualification, it's going to take a lot of balls to violate the rule. Anyone can be filming your violation... Post to instagram... DQ.

For BITD, all the pitting happens in designated areas. Easy to monitor. Every team will film every other team!

Now, a pit in the middle of nowhere, at night - I agree it's not enforceable for that pit. But for most pitting, especially pits with spectators around (the most risky), I think it's enforceable.
If spectators and other teams are relied upon to do it it's basically unenforceable. Or it will be very selectively enforced.
 

dan200

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Every team will film every other team!
And then watch as the first team that films something questionable and turns it in or makes it public then becomes "the tattle tales of off road racing" and everyone will secretly not trust them and maybe hate them.

Not that that should be the case but, it would be. Kinda like nobody has ever become popular by filing a protest.
 

jon coleman

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i was around some ' why dont we protest' types, thats when the team principle made sure we understood what Sal Fish meant on protesting when he stated,' go win a championship first'.....
 

43mod

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2 min fuel stop w 5 min per second penalty . Only an idiot would cut it short . Easily enforceable by the public .
 

cjohnson

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2 min fuel stop w 5 min per second penalty . Only an idiot would cut it short . Easily enforceable by the public .
Public: I can't wait to watch the race.
Random people on RDC: Wait you can't just watch, You have to make sure nobody pits too fast.
Public: WTF? How do I do that?
Random people on RDC: It's easy. Use your phone camera. Figure it out.
Public. F.O.
 

43mod

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Or the smart thing of expensive one off danger riddled bombs to get an advantage for a month or three . Then everyone buy a bomb so the advantage is gone, more money spent and the cool part is the bomb is still w us .
 

Slippery P

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The dead horse has been beatin enough!
863DE82B-BBC5-476C-BE5B-1B25E3B4058A.jpeg
 

Robin Hood

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My two cents:

1) The problem is the redhead valve. I have two of them in my garage. The design is not robust. Too easy to jam or cut seals, like seems to be what happened here.

2) You need to replace the redhead with a better design, something like this: FIA approved refueling pit stop system for motorsports SAF - Stäubli This is a modern design that has gone through a lot of testing. Here is another modern design: https://www.krontec.de/katalog/pdf/Kapitel09_Betankungssystem/09-RFC-Kupplung.pdf

3) It would be very expensive to implement the above Staubli / Krontec system at every pit stop across every team. A much cheaper approach is to mandate a minimum time for filling. E.g., if you decide to add fuel to the truck, you have to pit for at least 90 seconds. That would allow people to move more slowly with the Redhead, minimizing the chance of spills.

4) As Jerry noted, the fuel cell did not vent properly. I don't know why not. We can guess as to the tank's construction, but it's probably what Jerry said about the rollover valve being sucked shut. Everyone should use one of these flapper valves on their tank. Dual Safety Flapper Valve | Aero Tec Laboratories This flapper is specifically designed for dual hose refilling, where one hose injects fuel while the other hose vents. The flowing fuel holds the vent open, making it impossible to pressurize the tank. ATL US does not stock these flappers. I don't know why not. I had to buy mine from ATL UK.

Pretty cool stuff. I wonder if these set ups would be more prone to issues with dirt and contamination.
 

Zambo

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You can't have people pit wherever they want and enforce some mandatory time limit. The only way to do that is like NORRA does where you enter a liaison stage that has a minimum time and you get a penalty if you start the next race stage too early. Its enforced by officials and the tracking device, not random knuckleheads with cellphone cameras.
 
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