Respect for the fallen.....

Lcheeney

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Posts
17
Reaction
16
Location
Nevada
Lchenny,

Sorry for your loss.

Coming on here and Calling David a lier isn't going to fly. David is one of the sports MVP's. He has dedicated his life to helping us racers and I have never seen him shy away from admitting what can be improved. He has zero ego and truly cares.

How do you create a process that helps when multiple sources are calling in bad information? That added with the fact that there was 3 scenes its a mess. You have the Broke down UTV location, The location he got hit, and the check point the racer that hit him went to. thats just an outlier scenario that no planning can fix.

Fact is racers break down all the time and its never this confusing. They simply stay with the broke down vehicle with the Racing Trax broke down button activated. Problem solved. BITD gets people there super fast. It happens 100's of times a season and goes very well, its a proven system.

To come on here and blame isn't cool. This was next level confusion that Darren created. It sucks but it is what it is.

I do think David already said there can be improvements with local first responders. But again if done right there is zero need for outside responders. So David will fix something that has never been an issue unit this cluster F.

Sorry to be blunt but you are on a public forum slinging mud at very well respected people.

Mike
I'm sorry, but I don't recall calling Dave or anyone else a liar. I agree it was very confusing and unprecedented for everyone. Lots of folks have bits and pieces of the story and have filled in the blanks with their own interpretations of how it all happened. That's why I spoke up. And from my very first post I stated that there was only one person to blame. But that does not negate the fact that we can all learn from this and improve moving forward. I'm sorry my words were misunderstood. I realize that my knowledge of what happened is limited by the information I have based on what I saw, experienced, and heard from the only eye witness. Everyone involved has a different set of information, experiences, and knowledge which leads to different interpretations of how and what happened. This is precisely the reason that there needs to be a way to get all parties together. The truth of the matter lies in the entirety of everyone's experiences and knowledge. Different perspectives do not equal dishonesty. However, filling in gaps with assumptions does. I appreciate your perspective, and I apologize if I offended you.
 

MTPyle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Posts
2,075
Reaction
4,555
Location
Draper UT
Lori.

fair enough. You may not know this but eye witness accounts are the worst. It’s shocking how wrong people are when they finally see the facts. Especially eye witness that have emotional attachment to the incident.

it sure seemed to me that you were calling David (Motorsports safety) out on his facts. His were actual facts not clouded with emotional bias. And he was at the center of the facts.

I agree with you that we can learn from this. But I think the low hanging fruit is racer education.

Mike
 

Lcheeney

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Posts
17
Reaction
16
Location
Nevada
No doubt, racer education is paramount. Something we can all do better moving forward. I totally understand the limitations of eye witnesses, but they still add a layer of understanding that cannot be dismissed, as does every other account. Thanks for the conversation. Have a good night
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Posts
14,939
Reaction
10,354
Location
Big Bear, CA
It's like instructing people when they get lost in the Wilderness. Stay put, create a visual indicator of where you are that can be seen from the air, make loud noise, oh, and stay put! Want to guess hat happens 99 out of 100 times? The lost person keeps moving trying to get unlost and the folks searching for them find traces that the lost person WAS there at some point. Stay with the vehicle and, if possible, stay in the vehicle. Don't walk on or near the race course.
 

ndvalium

Rescue Director
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Posts
3,100
Reaction
3,229
Location
Las Vegas / Nevada
Exactly. But the racer who hit his emergency button should have stopped. The team involved was 100-125 yards from their car and could not hit theirs. There was cell service, but Nye County dispatch didn't even know there was a race, nor did Esmerelda dispatch, and that's a problem. The race mile was reported wrong, but was quickly corrected. BITD radio was used, but thete was much confusion between all parties. GPS coordinates were relayed, but no one in dispatch seemed to know what those were. Like I said before, none of this would have saved our guy. But moving forward we can all improve to reduce the confusion. That's what I would like to see. Things like this are chaotic, but also should be a learning experience for all to improve.
Lori,

I know as the mother of the co-driver, you rightfully have more emotion into this than most. Please understand my life’s mission has been dedicated to improving racer safety in off road Motorsports. This is literally all I do with my life.

I personally have met with BITD and we have developed some things that will change for rookie drivers and those new to our sport. Education to people would have made a difference likely about what hides in the dust.

I have met with the agencies involved including Esmerelda and Nye County offices. They are very aware of this event and were that day. Permits were filed and approved by every county we go through. In addition officers that responded and ultimately ended up at the scene were watching the race in various locations as well as getting numerous autographs from various chase teams speeding through their communities. Now how they handle requests on a race course, is an area they did not comprehend. That is a significant learning experience and we have not only started some changes to deal with that but will have better in person pre race communication so they not only have maps and info, but know how to defer requests to our teams assigned to the event.

Take for example Nye County. Northern Nye County where this race is used. The Assistant Fire Chief and 7 of the 15 active members of the Tonopah Fire Department actually work the event and have for decades. They are part of my team.

Members of Esmerelda, Mineral, and Churchill fire departments are also part of this event.

Improvements are always being looked for and will continue to be made to this sport as long as I am allowed to be involved.

As a side note Lori, this event effected my team greatly. As you know I placed a cross at the scene and my team and I will be going back there on October 9th to place a plaque on the cross in honor of Darren. We will be out there at noon.
 

Lcheeney

Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2021
Posts
17
Reaction
16
Location
Nevada
Dave,
I know that you guys were impacted, and I pray for your team every day. I am thankful for your team and their service. You all care deeply and that is what makes you good at what you do. Maybe communication and dissemination of information is the issue then, even on my part. I jumped on this forum because a family member let me know that there was talk on here that did not seem consistent with the details as we know them. And it was not you that was involved in the misinformed talk. Additionally, I recognize that I am emotionally involved and that I have different information than you. Once again, this is why all parties need better communications, and in turn better communication of the events with the public so that racers and race crews will have a better understanding of things going forward. This has been my only point all along. I think we all make assumptions, because we are human, that are not accurate. The only way to clear up those assumptions is through open and clear communication. I know that I have gained a greater understanding of this event just by you being willing to communicate with me on this forum. I hope that all those who have been following this understand it better as well. Thank you for taking the time to be open about this event. Thank you for placing the cross. Thank you for caring and serving. Please accept my apology if I came across as accusatory. That was never my intention, and I will do better going forward in how I communicate my thoughts.
Sincerely,
Lori
 

J Prich

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Posts
8,147
Reaction
10,380
Location
Las Vegas
Dave,
I know that you guys were impacted, and I pray for your team every day. I am thankful for your team and their service. You all care deeply and that is what makes you good at what you do. Maybe communication and dissemination of information is the issue then, even on my part. I jumped on this forum because a family member let me know that there was talk on here that did not seem consistent with the details as we know them. And it was not you that was involved in the misinformed talk. Additionally, I recognize that I am emotionally involved and that I have different information than you. Once again, this is why all parties need better communications, and in turn better communication of the events with the public so that racers and race crews will have a better understanding of things going forward. This has been my only point all along. I think we all make assumptions, because we are human, that are not accurate. The only way to clear up those assumptions is through open and clear communication. I know that I have gained a greater understanding of this event just by you being willing to communicate with me on this forum. I hope that all those who have been following this understand it better as well. Thank you for taking the time to be open about this event. Thank you for placing the cross. Thank you for caring and serving. Please accept my apology if I came across as accusatory. That was never my intention, and I will do better going forward in how I communicate my thoughts.
Sincerely,
Lori
If you'll indulge me, I'd like to refer to my previous post the other day regarding the nature of internet forums and public spaces. I can only imagine the difficulties you and others close to Darren have faced over the last few weeks. As if the event itself wasn't bad enough, I am sure that seeing these kinds of discussions here and elsewhere online are equally devastating. My guess is that there is some inevitable human nature that draws folks in your shoes to this, partly as a means to cope, partly as a good faith effort to try to correct misinformation on behalf of Darren's memory. But as I said in my other post, at the end of the day this is the internet and this is what the internet does.

I genuinely believe your true intent is to at least try to spur some positive change from tragedy. That's noble, and SHOULD be done. My previous point was just to say that this is not the place to achieve what you're stating. 99% of the people engaging with you here were not there and only know what they've seen and heard from here and elsewhere (myself included). You are tilting at windmills in my opinion. You are much better served engaging with people like Dave directly, and privately. In spite of Dave's busy schedule he is very accessible and as I'm sure you know by now, he is passionate, sincere, and truly in a position to affect the kind of change you are hoping for. My guess is the folks involved at BITD are the same.

Just a well intended bit of advice from a complete stranger here...I think you would be better served to focus your energies in places like this on sharing positive memories of Darren. Instead of engaging the proverbial peanut gallery in a lose-lose exchange of negativity, perhaps it would be more helpful for you and others to help contextualize who Darren was and what he was about. Regarding the procedural changes, etc, consider having private one on one conversations with the right folks to help express your feelings and perhaps find some comfort in knowing that there already have been lessons learned that those involved are working on implementing to help minimize the risk of future occurrences.

You and everyone involved with Darren and this accident are rightly emotionally impacted and deserve to grieve and process in whatever manner you see fit. But for your own sanity, I think it's worth evaluating whether this current course of dialogue is really going to achieve anything positive for you and others.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Posts
14,939
Reaction
10,354
Location
Big Bear, CA
Again-

Good luck. Not that I disagree with the premise of investigating, finding facts, looking for ways to prevent it in the future, and educating those still around about it, I STRONGLY THINK that is exactly what should happen. But experience with this kind of stuff in another life has shown that humans never want to find fault or place blame on those who are dead even if it is their fault. Instead, what happens is, sides are picked and the 'good guys' side is always the side that casts the dead person as a hero warrior who was taken by some nefarious shadow reason that can never be determined or displayed exactly is it is. Those who find fault, even if there is fault, are the bad guys always casting negative thoughts and just want to tear good people down, even if what they say is true and correct and will prevent bad things from happening in the future. In ,y ,ind, this seems to be an immature response that humans can't seem to outgrow from their teen years, you know, the one where you scream at adults to just let you live your own life the way you want to and make your own mistakes rather than learn from others. That seems to be the longest lesson our little brains ever capture.


A little more back ground. I was involved at the management level on, unfortunately, more than 6 large wildland fires that involved firefighter line fatalities. This is why I know what happens when investigations into deaths generally ends up getting washed out and little to no real change ever occurs. Racing will be no different. Why? Human Nature, in a nut shell. Look at the current situation with Covid. Emotional response has replaced data based response all the way around on both sides of the argument, just like it does into cause/fault of death investigations. Almost always, ultimately, the initial cause of most major injury/death incidents is human error. We tend to look for every other cause except human error in initial investigations because we WANT it not to be an error by humans. By the time investigations have reduced causes to those we don't like/want to accept, the armies are usually well on their way to do battle against any and all conclusions. More time passes and the war becomes not about finding cause/fault, but about beating the other side because they are fat headed ignorant fools who don't know what they are talking about, said by both sides about the other.

I wasn't there, so I don't know how many feet from the designated midline GPS route of the course the fallen was when they were struck. I don't know how dusty it was, how reduced visibility was, how close together the race vehicles were at this point in the race, etc... Latency of electronics, acceptable variance by electronics manufacturers, etc... mean that none of the data recovered will be perfect either. So that means that all opinions from the time of death forward, even the official ones, will be just that, opinions. Not perfect, may smell, but it's the best we will have. Sometimes, the simple answer is the most correct answer. While unfortunate and very sad, a person is dead because of a bad decision on their part. Crossing the course, in what I can only assume was very dusty conditions, with multiple cars all within close proximity due it being very early in the race meant that the risk far outweighed the gain and the ultimate price was paid. Regardless of how long it took for initial medical help, Advanced Life Support, the ambulance, helicopter, etc... to get there, in 32 years of working in the fire service, I can honestly say that I had 1 true traumatic full arrest live after transfer from the field. May not be a statistic anyone wants to hear and yes, it should scare people, because fear creates a desire to learn and prevent future tragedies, but folks who do this for a living know it, live it, and try to prevent it every day they work.

If the only thing anyone takes away from this incident is don't traverse the race course on foot in the dust, I consider that a win.
 

Fifty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Posts
727
Reaction
391
Location
Ca
Thank you for sharing. The Incident Action Plan (IAP) forms are the best especially for a planned event like an upcoming race. ICS forms 201 through 218 are great because you will ha e all the information already complete before the race even starts. These forms are readily accessible on the internet. ICS form 206 Medical Plan is nice to have so everyone is on the same page. Probably good to have the course broke down by mileage. Miles 1 through 100 go this this hospital and miles 101 through X go to this hospital, etc.

Dave, very nice recap of the events and this is exactly how we get better and better to deal with a accident if required.

Dave, are you able to have your volunteers take NIMS, ICS 100, 200, and 700? Everyone that volunteers for assisting in rescues should take those courses.
ICS/NIMS etc should be free to anyone. I’m fairly certain there are enough free power points out there, not to mention just about every leo/firefighter/ems has taken the train the trainer course.

even still, if you have the guys do a sim just to kind of work through the paperwork and see what goes where...

But the big thing to take from these is truly allowing the safety officer to do what they need to do. So many orgs may have the plan in place via paper but then won’t actually follow it or allow the people in the positions to do their jobs. (Or they don’t know what their jobs are or there is interagency battles for control)
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Posts
14,939
Reaction
10,354
Location
Big Bear, CA
If you have ever worked in a true IM event, you learn immediately that rank doesn't matter, only position/function. Tell that to the guy who OWNS the promotional organization!
 

Fifty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Posts
727
Reaction
391
Location
Ca
Sure it does. When a higher rank starts ordering a lower rank to ignore or overlook their incident command position duties. Happens almost every time to the safety officer.
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Posts
1,266
Reaction
1,599
Location
San Felipe / Washington
Sure it does. When a higher rank starts ordering a lower rank to ignore or overlook their incident command position duties. Happens almost every time to the safety officer.
You must work for the wrong guy or gal. The Safety Officer shall have responsibly to shut down operations or correct operations at any point when they are in that position no matter what the situation is.
 

Fifty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Posts
727
Reaction
391
Location
Ca
I’ve worked for quite a few wrong guys or gals. The bigger the event, the more likely

and almost always when politicians get involved.
 

Honda48X

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Posts
1,266
Reaction
1,599
Location
San Felipe / Washington
Wow Fifty. Sorry to hear that. When someone is appointed a position and according to the National Incident Management System they are placed in that role because of there ability to manage that responsibility. Sorry that you have people above you that don’t trust you or others placed in those positions.

I have always been trusted and have been on many large incidents. I was involved in the CA 200 Incident and at the time there were many areas for improvement, but once in place, the Incident was handled pretty well considering the location and the number of people we had to airlift. Helo’s in and out with very few issues, and all in the dark of night.
 

Fifty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Posts
727
Reaction
391
Location
Ca
I think with fire, it’s been such a long used system, and the people on the command system positions are repetitively out in those... and the nims/ics system of staffing very closely matches the fire chain of command... that it’s a good fit.

when it goes toward interagency and inter-disciplinary command/control settings is when these problems occur.

And seeing that a race series is not going to chock full of fire staff, but have owners, paid employees, volunteers, paid consultant/vendor type staff... then it’s very quickly going to work like a non fire event.

for instance... logistics is often the busiest of positions in a Mobile Field Force event, but often headed by someone with out the rank or authority by the nature of law enforcement to fulfill the duties of that position with out constantly needing the approval of the chain of command that is outside the ics program.

and because I used the safety officer as an example... I’ll continue with it. Rarely will you have someone in that position that can/will forget rank and stop an operation... nor will an elected official accept a low rank employee from pulling the plug on something due to a safety (staffing or equipment issue)

At the end of the day. Ics/nims is a fire/ems set up that starts to show its loose threads the more it involves organizations outside the fire/ems world.
Heck... the Red Cross version of it is a joke because of disaster manager vs corporate vs volunteer staffing etc etc...
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Posts
14,939
Reaction
10,354
Location
Big Bear, CA
What you are talking about is egos and people who cannot do the jobs they are assigned. And yes, I saw this exact thing happen with Katrina. So many DC cubicle dwellers who had to get a cert for an ICS position to earn bonus money, but when an actual incident happened, they were just about useless. Our FEMA team was scavenged for people with large incident experience (being a Socal team with many members who had worked large fires and previous earthquakes) meant folks with real on the ground experience. It took a few days for the 9-5 folks to get on board and understand their function and responsibility. Especially the Logs guys who thought they should be able to keep their 9-5 hours! But if you get your task book anywhere other than an online do it yourself course, you are taught to know your role, know that position dictates rank, not the other way around, and that responsibility means you can have anyone you are supervising removed or moved to another assignment if they will not respect the role. I sent several higher ranked folks off their assignment over the years because they felt their collar brass was heavier than mine.
 
Top