Revive a dying class

MTPyle

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I love watching the 4700 class trucks, they look fun to drive and have the power to get into trouble. Haha

Cant wait to see that class grow. What makes a 4700? what are the limitations?

Mike
 

SMS81

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Tim, good thread.
Pee Wee, thanks for endorsing 4700. You guys will be fast next season. Could see ten trucks racing soon.
dislocate1, You are correct. A 1700 with stroker motor, 35" tire and more travel and better shocks is the most economical way for 1700 guys to go faster.
Red Ford Racer, could one of your 300 hp TL hang with a 4700 PT both with 18" front travel?
Question, how come a forced induction 6 cyl runs against naturally aspirated 6 cyl in 7200?

I didn’t think Rob MAC would finish 8th overall in a 1600 at the Mint, but he did. It’s not all the vehicle. Just saying hp and travel numbers aren’t the Bible in Offroad racing. Great prep and homework go a long ways. IMHO, that 4700 class is awesome, hope it stays the way it is before big$$ destroys it! (Ok, maybe some of us knew he would, it’s Rob MAC!)
 

misterktm

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Tim : 4700 is the ticket...You know I put my time in 1700. The step up is unbelievable. The class will easily get faster - we're still learning to drive this thing! Entries keep growing, there are several more trucks that are going to join next year. I think 10 is very possible - which will probably be the biggest class in jeepspeed next year.

Mike - 18" front travel, 123" wheelbase, 37" tires, no underdrives. Dodge grill, General tires/KMC wheels. Pro trucks just happen to fit almost perfectly. We can't quiet get 18" of travel up front in stock form.
 

Jeepspeed1720

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Hey Tim. Looking at your original thoughts. I agree. 1700 is struggling in car count. So is 2700 and 3700.4700 tbd. Jeepspeed always touts numbers of teams competing. The problem is they don’t compete every race and therefore you race against 4-6 people most races. When I bought my 1700 to rebuild (2014) I did it because of Two reasons, ease of cost/prep and car count. By the time I raced (2016) the average race car count had already started to drop. By 2019 it was down to 4-6. Imo 1700 is far too costly for the speed it averages. Ask me how I know. Sure you can show up with a stock crate engine and driveline and finish. But there’s no way you’ll podium if the hp guys finish. Rob Seubert, Biehl, Allred , Randall were all running hp. So to compete we had to do the same. $9k in a 4.0 and aw4 trans that is running on the edge of catastrophe is too much for the advertising of cost effective racing. Parker 2019 we finished second. Fourth place finisher who ran mostly stock components was Loud and open calling all of us in the top 3 cheaters and telling Jeepspeed officials they better catch us or he wouldn’t be back. In my opinion 1700 is down due to cost. I’m looking at budget for next year in production turbo and entry fee difference is really the only significant additional cost compared to 1700. Fuel mpg is better in the utv. Tires, wheels, heims, driveshafts electronics etc are all comparable. I’ll need an additional chase crew/truck. A brand new engine , trans and turbo from Can-Am is reliable and around 8k. I did however look at 4700 before deciding on my current venture. Jeepspeed says in the post above its 80 grand or more in utv to compete. I disagree. It’s 80 grand if you pay to buy a turn key car. I also heard the red and white WJ that runs 1700 was 120k to build. (???) If you do your part it’s not. But for arguments sake let’s say it is. Jeepspeed also said it would cost 80k for a 4700. If both cost 80k then race the class with 50 starters rather than 5. I’d rather see who I am in the stack with 50 ( and be mid pack) than take third in a pack of 5. Or worse put more money in your xj to run 2700. Racing in a class of 2-3. Jeepspeed was fun while i was in the driver seat, the rest of the time imo it was Over complicated . If fun is what your after I would recommend keeping running 1700. If you want car count consider utv. Or as the elitists call them “ golf carts”. The top golf cart beat every class 10 car On corrected time at V2R this year by the way. If you want to go faster then you’ll have to decide how much more you want to spend. If 4700 continues to grow upwards of 15-20 per race and I’m getting my ass handed to me in a couple seasons in production turbo then I may revisit the 4700 idea. Until then I’ll accept the challenge. You are the only one who can define fun for you. My 2 cents.
 

jeepspeedcom

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Like I said. Good post. We hate to get into these online discussions but.....1720 your 4 to 6 entries is a little misleading. The only time Jeepspeed had four 1700s was not surprisingly at this years Covid V2R. If you check the 2019 BITD points summary the Average 1700s was 8 plus 7 other Jeepspeed for avg 15 Jeepspeeders at each event .....The total Jeepspeed numbers have remained constant as many quick 1700 guys have gone to our faster classes leaving the 1700 field now open to new racers.

Also the purchase numbers suggested were for turn key race trucks being bought and sold. Recently the used turn key 1700s advertised all sold just about 20K and have won and podiumed out the box. Allred, Gambrell, Stone, Garzik, Trim,to name a few. Sure they updated them later during ownership. Going to be interesting how the recently well purchased Ray Griffith Cherokee does at Parker. also your sold Cherokee.?

The $80K number I am told is the turn key number for a winning SxS. To the best of my knowledge all the Pro Trucks recently sold have been under $80K. Merely trying to point out you can buy turn key race cars in every class for much less than building or buying new.

Lets forget the negative, move on, and get ready for an exciting post Covid 2021 race season. Like you said Jimmy, 1700 is about fun. If you want to go faster Jeepspeed has classes for you. Good luck next year to everyone no matter what class you run.
 

jon coleman

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one of the problems with budgeting for the racing we do it prep cost.

I dont think a 6100 is more to prep than a 4700. But I bet if you are racing 6100 you are going to do more prep to just make sure its all good. So the 6100 ends up more just because those guys want to be more competitive. Its not like the parts on a 6100 are more expensive than a 4700. Its mostly the same stuff.

There is a huge variable in prep cost. You can do a $30K prep or a $6K prep. You wont get away with many $6K preps before you need to do a bigger one. So you really have to look at a complete season of prep. We just had to buy a $9K engine, thats not happening on a $6K prep. If I look at the average cost of our preps for the season its around $6K and thats without paying expensive shop rates. Thats when we do most of the work. So a 6100 isn't that bad. That being said I think the prep we just did with engine and all is pushing $25K, it adds up fast. I bet if you completely re built a 4700 with new engine and fresh everything it would be the same. there is nothing exotic about a 6100.

Mike
i never prepped my jeepspeeds,2 of them, oil change , kick tires, then go have a blast, hate to say it, 1700 is home again some day, when thing$ work out ;)
20200929_205137-1.jpg
 

3 Amigos Racing

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I am not the best poster child for Jeepspeed after a flame out sell at the end of a best in class 1700 Wrangler build followed by my teams sell of a newly acquired fastest 1700 Grand Cherokee, I am out due to my inability to overcome some personal life issues each time taking me out as I wholesaled my life twice now in 4 years. (No it was not hookers and blow related lol) We chose Jeepspeed due to the Jeepspeed organization that provided fair consistent rules, solid entry fields, good prep cost per mile and the ability to have reduced entry cost in races like V2R and Parker with great class sponsor visibility.

I think COVID and the appearance of a condensed BITD schedule may be limiting the current entries? How do you get those 1700 class cars out to pump the numbers might be better than a whole new class or leaving a good spec series? A 4700 under Jeepspeed looks like a good time.

That being said I still look at all the cars for sale and try to figure out how to have fun, not go broke and race to win when and if I get the chance again. Each day I look away unable to pick a new go to car on a budget with no drama or extreme costs. End of the day for me the decisions to be made first is where will you race? SNORE-MORE-BITD-Baja, followed by is it a series run or a bucket list schedule? Do you want to win often in a spec class or possibly not so often in a open class? Each of those race modes has a different horse that fits that one series. That's my advice look at where you will really race in the future for that next hot rod.
 
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CMA GUMBY

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Well said from a Man that has raced many different SPEC classes and been competitive doing so. He can't lose the "BUG". Dude has spent more time/money in the last 20+? years enjoying racing in the desert. Wise man when it comes to SPEC classes. Best of luck Dave. 🙏
 

3 Amigos Racing

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Well said from a Man that has raced many different SPEC classes and been competitive doing so. He can't lose the "BUG". Dude has spent more time/money in the last 20+? years enjoying racing in the desert. Wise man when it comes to SPEC classes. Best of luck Dave. 🙏
Thanks my friend, its been ugly and disappointing for the last bit for sure.. appreciate the kind words! On a positive note my best bud Ron Thomas just won his class at Primm and I was able to head out there and hang out with him. Good times. First race been to in a while for me. Hope all good for you!
 

Jeepspeed1720

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1720 your 4 to 6 entries is a little misleading. The only time Jeepspeed had four 1700s was not surprisingly at this years Covid V2R. If you check the 2019 BITD points summary the Average 1700s was 8
[/QUOTE]
Jeepspeed You’re correct. I was unclear in my comment. My meaning was 4-6 who are consistently competing for a championship.
 

JJernigan282

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Im gonna jump in on this one as i dont really post much.....Our ProTruck was converted over to 6100 last year and because we do lack suspension, races like Laughlin are really hard for us to compete with others in the 6100 class. We did finish 2nd at Battle at Primm in 6100 couple weeks ago....and racing again in TrophyTruck class in CODE this weekend. Our plan is to run the 4700 jeepspeed series next year. We were hoping to run Vegas-Reno earlier but do to Covid issues pulled out.... I know entries for 4700 class seem low but the potential for that class is there....And these trucks when dialed in can be super competitive and fast.....
 

dislocated1

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Looking forward to seeing Jernigan running in 4700!


Hoping to have the ex-Vest pro-truck done for Coan/Krellwitz for Parker in 2021
 

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BradHartliep

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Revive a dying class.????

Interesting post from our long time racer Tim Martin. Here is my personal take on this subject. Speed cost money so how fast do you want to go. Your average speed chart proves that.

After racing teams in the desert since 1991 in about every truck class from stone stock, Class 3, Class 6 , Class 8. 1700, 2700, 3700, 7200 to Trophy Truck I would like to chime in.. Class 1700 with 6 cyl and 33" tire has not changed in 20 years and is the longest running spec class in the desert and is still the cheapest way to go. Competitive cars are available from $15K to $25K. Pre covid in 2019 we had 15 teams compete. This short season 11 teams with 6 new teams who have bought cars in last 6 months. Also the 11 teams this year in 2700 and 3700 are progressions of 1700 with more power and travel. The SXS and TL took a bite into 1700 until now, when they are costing up to $80K to get a winner. 1700 is not a dying class.

To address the meat of your post our new 4700 class satisfies your need for speed for affordable truck racing available to purchase at under $80K. Our winning trucks are now averaging 50 mph. Class 6100 averaging 60 mph but costing $200k to $300K. The prep cost of a 4700 have got to be 25% of 6100. Class 4700 can include Pro Truck, Ultra 4, 7200, Class 8, 1450, any tube frame or back halved truck under 123" wheel base or stock WB +/- 2" with factory frame.. All you need body wise at this point is a Jeep or Dodge recognizable grill.

Please, No new classes are needed as there are scores of idle trucks that could do a little body work and join 4700. No crazy rules about sealed motors, minimum weight, spec trans, steel or glass bodies. Just limited 18"front travel and 37" tires which are great equalizers.

Tim I can give you a list of Pro Trucks and 1450 trucks that have been advertised in the last 6 months at half the cost you would spend to build a new truck.

Hope this helps with your decision.

PS. How much is this Fusion???? Not cheap I suspect.

80,000 Dollars is NOT Affordable by any stretch of the imagination - the average person makes less than $50,000 a year and can't afford a weekend plaything that costs more than probably 10K MAX -- 1700 is dying because there are too many rich elites competing and the Cherokees - 20 to 30 year old vehicles - are too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain in order to be COMPETITIVE and have any chance of winning - just like all the other classes - the rich always drive out the poor and win all the races - then the poor give up, pack their bags, sell the trucks, and go home - and the class dies .. the prices they're getting for STOCK, UNBUILT Dana 44s is outrageous, the prices they're getting for XJ, ZJ and WJ suspension upgrades and axle rebuilds and brake upgrades and 4.0 L engine rebuilds is ridiculous .. the manufactures need to lower their prices .. they've sold thousands of their products over the years and have recouped their investment multifold - this is not new technology, its been around for 25 years or more, but the prices they're trying to get are still sky high - the average person can't afford them - at least not all of them, which is what you need to be competitive - the average person can't afford to spend 30K to build a class 1400 cherokee that they're going to go and wreck in the desert and need to spend another 5k after every race to repair it .. a pre-cut ready to fit and weld rollbar assy that meets race specs front to back should only cost about $500.00 .. a 6 inch lift [or 4" for 33's with larger wheel-well openings] should only be $500.00 for everything .. relax the rules, open the class up to more commonly available aftermarket parts, instead of limiting it to the Elite Group of Manufacturers, get the total cost to build a 1700 Cherokee below $10,000, limit the overall cost to a maximum of $10,000 [mandatory list of all parts installed and [commonly accepted] cost of parts at inspection], with no "custom made parts" except for the roll cage [with alternate pre-cut, fit and weld available for cost containment] and wheel well mods and plexiglass windows, get rid of claimer engines: if someone is clearly making more power than the rest of the Class - force 'em to pull their head for inspection of bore and stroke - outlaw manufactured beadlock rims {expense containment} [drilling and running screws behind the bead would be acceptable as that only costs maybe 100 dollars in screws and some silicone sealant for 6 rims], an approved race seat, an approved seat belt harness, an approved helmet, and outlaw any product that is deemed too expensive for the average person, and go back to the less stuffed-shirt rules of the 1970s and 1980s, when people were allowed to experiment and take chances and drive across the desert in cut-off shorts and tees and the class will grow ..
 

jon coleman

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80,000 Dollars is NOT Affordable by any stretch of the imagination - the average person makes less than $50,000 a year and can't afford a weekend plaything that costs more than probably 10K MAX -- 1700 is dying because there are too many rich elites competing and the Cherokees - 20 to 30 year old vehicles - are too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain in order to be COMPETITIVE and have any chance of winning - just like all the other classes - the rich always drive out the poor and win all the races - then the poor give up, pack their bags, sell the trucks, and go home - and the class dies .. the prices they're getting for STOCK, UNBUILT Dana 44s is outrageous, the prices they're getting for XJ, ZJ and WJ suspension upgrades and axle rebuilds and brake upgrades and 4.0 L engine rebuilds is ridiculous .. the manufactures need to lower their prices .. they've sold thousands of their products over the years and have recouped their investment multifold - this is not new technology, its been around for 25 years or more, but the prices they're trying to get are still sky high - the average person can't afford them - at least not all of them, which is what you need to be competitive - the average person can't afford to spend 30K to build a class 1400 cherokee that they're going to go and wreck in the desert and need to spend another 5k after every race to repair it .. a pre-cut ready to fit and weld rollbar assy that meets race specs front to back should only cost about $500.00 .. a 6 inch lift [or 4" for 33's with larger wheel-well openings] should only be $500.00 for everything .. relax the rules, open the class up to more commonly available aftermarket parts, instead of limiting it to the Elite Group of Manufacturers, get the total cost to build a 1700 Cherokee below $10,000, limit the overall cost to a maximum of $10,000 [mandatory list of all parts installed and [commonly accepted] cost of parts at inspection], with no "custom made parts" except for the roll cage [with alternate pre-cut, fit and weld available for cost containment] and wheel well mods and plexiglass windows, get rid of claimer engines: if someone is clearly making more power than the rest of the Class - force 'em to pull their head for inspection of bore and stroke - outlaw manufactured beadlock rims {expense containment} [drilling and running screws behind the bead would be acceptable as that only costs maybe 100 dollars in screws and some silicone sealant for 6 rims], an approved race seat, an approved seat belt harness, an approved helmet, and outlaw any product that is deemed too expensive for the average person, and go back to the less stuffed-shirt rules of the 1970s and 1980s, when people were allowed to experiment and take chances and drive across the desert in cut-off shorts and tees and the class will grow ..
you posted whats been rolling around in my head for years since i began in jeepspeed in 03, ( only raced ten miles in 03', broke new years eve), i say make it a claimer class, The whole truck!, as it crossed the finish line!i sold mine for a loss not much, i dont count labor, but i see 1700 going for 20-30k, my first one cost me around 2500 bucks, minus the 2000k for new bilstien smoothies, and i got 3rd in 1700 pro year end points(04), spent next to nuthin' to race, had a blast, now i see 1700 with All the bling' built racing transmission', built,trick bling, race motor, mine was oem junkyard,4900 rpm Max, raced it the whole first trucks career, i say let any thing go in the build, just keep current specs, that way garage guy can build his own control arms Way cheaper than an aftermarket company, oh well, boring story of glory days, but one guy in the class didnt use the rich guy wins excuse, Ray Griffith, ridiculous fast driver, i mean in1700 you can do good in lower dollar equiptment, and thats the appeal to garage guy, but its starting to fade into big dollar rigs or stay home class, & thats what will kill 1700, Clive, any comments???
 
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MTPyle

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The "average" person can not afford to race anything, much less off-road. I don't think there has ever been a time that racing was accessible to the average guy. I promise Ray Griffith is "Rich" and was back then LOL Its all relative.

And even with classes like TL that are controlled to be cheaper and accessible are expensive and still people complain that they need too be wider, faster, etc...

Mike
 

BHollander

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Racing is a rich man's sport but with that said if there is a will there is a way. I raced plenty in premier series and we were competitive and at that time I made less than $50k before taxes. Just an average guy here that had a dream.

I really enjoy watching Ray race. IMO he is the underdog that kicks everyone's butt. He proves his skill in the dirt and prepping his stuff and earns seats. Rich man I don't know about that but talented dude for sure.
 
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