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Rock'n Raceco Redux

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
Fox in that era also had the "position sensitive" shocks which were bypass shocks. Really surprised your car didn't have any on it originally. Would those be legal? May have to quiz CW.

Did not get to race this year, stuck in purgatory a little while longer. Hopefully next year.

Who made the light covers? Rory? They are awesome.
Ok...deep breath. When I think people are going after me I get my talons out. Sorry if I was aggressive.

Rory turned me onto the the idea (thanks Rory) but I made the covers out of black BD covers, prepped for paint then with art from Rory's graphics guy forwarded to Miller Design. I love the way they look.
 

Ed frisk

Member

Just read below and you guys tell me what this says from Walker Evan's website...

The Velocity Series shocks have more controlled resistance than a standard piggyback or remote reservoir coilover. With the piggyback specifically positioned, these shocks offer higher resistance to bottoming out while allowing for a smoother, more compliant ride in the choppy bumps. These coilover shocks have an improved version of the Walker Evans Racing Needle Valve Technology to offer multiple stages of internal bypass that allows additional compression and rebound control.
 

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
No internal bypass in my shocks. Why the douch act? What dog do you have in the fight? Car #? Actually I had ZERO shock tuning and my 'nickel on a sticks' were just a good guess from Randy Anderson. They will be much better next year. Some people are just worst of humanity (E.F.).
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
He is simply stating what the maker of the shocks states. No 'douch' act, just stating facts. And facts are shocks like that were never available to racers when the car was built. I don't know why you get so upset when people call your car not vintage.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
By the way, that guy who you asked if he has a dog in the fight actually built vintage cars back in the day, but they were some of the best state of the art cars then.
 

TRAVISD

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is blowing this way out out of proportion. Did he build the car to be 100% 'vintage" no. He built the car to the rules that NORRA has built. Everyone is different on their builds, some like 100% vintage some build to the rules with modern parts. In the Challenger truck class that I run, I rebuilt my truck 100% vintage I still am running the shocks that the truck had on it 1989. In my class I race against a V6 and a V8 trucks with my four cylinder. Do you think I have a chance at keeping up with those guys? To each his own, this is supposed to be "the happiest race on earth" and at the end we all get a trophy. I think the car looks sweet with the mix of old and new.
 

lkrfn007

Well-Known Member
I don’t think they are blowing thing out of proportion, like bro Gil said.....I believe what they were simply saying is that the baker and ramocinsky cars capture the spirit of the vintage class with type iv and bus boxes and vintage bilstein shocks vs. big coil bypass (whatever) shocks, ecotec gm motor, not sure what transmission the car in question had....sequential??? Haha, just kidding.... unless it was.....then he start blasting people with douche and knob and he would like to meet these guys on the street blah blah blah.....internet tough guys name calling and freaking out when guys simply suggested it might not be vintage....then again it’s rdc and tons of guys love to hear themselves come unhinged.....
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
To sum up everyone’s thoughts....

The car in question is not “vintage” because it doesn’t have the parts on it that were available from the time frame the chassis was built in. This seems to be the purist point of view on this vehicle.

This particular vehicle was built to the class rules but with modern day components. It still meets all class rules according to the organization it is being raced in. It is not a tribute car and was not built to be one, but rather as a vehicle to enjoy the NORRA 1000 with and it appears to meet that purpose.

The car meets all the rules of the “challenger” class, but is not a “vintage” race car build.

Hopefully this is enough to sum up the feelings of the people involved and the arguing and unsettlement can be squashed so this thread may return to enjoyable viewing pleasure.


Sent from my iPhone using race-deZert
 

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
Nobody is freaking out and nobody is unhinged. But someone came on this thread (that I started) and stated that my car was illegal. Basically calling me a cheater. Uncool in my book. Read the rules. Read what I wrote, not what you think I said or what other people said that I said. The thread has been up for a year and a half and it has been well documented what I was planning on doing; building a car to safely and reliably race the NORRA challenger class. Mission accomplished. I just need to drive faster next year.

The comment regarding an in person conversation, was not based on wanting to fist fight but to answer any questions about my car AT THE RACE and not hiding behind the tech inspector after the race or hiding behind their keyboard trolling. The person had two days before the race and five days of racing to come up and ask me a question, but they decided to protest me after the race was already over then come on RDC and claim my car is illegal. Again not cool. My car was and is challenger class legal. If you don't like the components I put on my car that is ok and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I have never said my car was anything other than Challenger class legal, which it is. Eg...no sequential trans, no bypass shocks, shocks can't be bigger than 2.5", big type iv or up to a 2.5L water pumper, nothing larger than 35" tires, etc. I don't believe I ever used the 'V' word, simply the 'challenger' word. Each era is based on the technology that was available in that particular era. Mickey Thompson ran 35" tires on the Raceco that he won the 1982 Baja 1000 in. Hewland had five speed transmissions, there were water cooled engines run in the challenger era, etc.

I believe that NORRA will grow with the rules that they have now. There are a lot of cars that were built or restored that are now sitting, because they are too rare or some of the parts can not be economically replicated. My opinion. The reproduced Chenowths have received a lot of attention because of the older style and technology and built with parts that are readily available.
 
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bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
I love the tires. I got one drivers side flat on day one for some unknown reason (just a slow leak) but ran the same tires after that. Great traction and the rears were in decent shape after nearly 1400 miles of racing. The wheels are Walker Evans and are 4" wide.
 

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
One fun thing we did was to do 90% of our navigation using only the road book Dakar style. We would reset the odometer at the beginning of the special and use the road book notes. When things got weird or sketchy we would look at the GPS trail, but the road book was amazing. This made the 'super special' at the end of day five no big deal.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
"Mickey Thompson ran 35" tires on the Raceco that he won the 1982 Baja 1000 in. "

Don't think so. I believe the car he actually won the 1000 in were 33" Edwards recaps. That would be the yellow car. He later had a blue Raceco that had 35" Mickeys on the rear, but that was probably 5-6 years later, maybe longer. Guys were running 6 cylinder Porsche motors and 1 guy has returned with one of those in his vintage car. As it was. Your car is cool, but it is kind of disappointing that it was not rebuilt in a manner that represented the days it raced.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Matt the car looks great. Love the Blue! Good job on 2nd Place. It’s got to feel good finishing and not reliving the Beer Hauler maiden voyage.

IMO this car looks to be built to the rules. Not sure if the rules consider Needle Valve shocks a form of bypass? If Chris Wilson knew the shocks were Needle valve, and he still said they were legal. Then End of discussion!

Personally I think the needle valve that Walker does is exactly the same as what King does and considers it a IBS. I think Fox’s internal Bypasses are the only ones who do the internal bleed holes on the inner can? So maybe that is were the IBS confusion comes from?

If I was making the rules, this class would closer resemble how the cars were in this time period. Class 10 (aka the now class 12) never ran 35 inch tires. I would require this class to run a 33 max tire, with the fronts the 7.00X15 size. That’s the first and biggest rule change I would make. Second would be No bypass, internal or external shocks unless documented that the car had them at that time period. 2.5 max diameter shock. Gear boxes would be H pattern 4 speeds only. To increase reliability any modern day gear box could be used as long as it was a 4 speed H pattern. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t remember this era class 10 having the Hewland DG box or any 5 speeds?

And if you wanted to get real technical, you could say beam only, and shock towers must be fixed to the beam. No hoops unless documented. And only rear VW style stub axles or full floater rear hubs, as micros we’re not invented yet. But again, I think allowing micro’s just makes them more reliable and better for the spirit of the class.

But then how many cars would NOT be built if these were the rules? Would being to stricked ruin the class? Matt would you have built this car for Challenger if those were the rules? Or would you just enter Vintage 4 cyl?
 

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
-Ask Rory what brand and size tires MT ran in '82. If you own a tire company, do you think you would run on anything other than MT's if your name was Mickey Thompson?
-I did not make the challenger class rules, I just followed them. My car is challenger class legal as they are currently written. Why would they allow certain features in this class like 35's, water pumpers and 5-speed H-pattern transaxles if this technology wasn't used in the '80's. Flame on the rules makers not me.
-I see Pioneer and Legends trucks running 35's, beadlocks, LED lights, etc. All things not run in the day, but class legal.
-My shocks are not 'off the shelf' Walker shocks so don't presume to know what is inside. Walker doesn't make buggy shocks, so they were custom made to the challenger class rules. No internal or external bypass per the rules and 2.5" O.D. per the rules.
-There are a lot of opinions from people who didn't run the MX1K this year and/or have never run the MX1K. Some of these same people haven't races in over 10 years and some have never raced. Yet lots of strong opinions. I think the rule makers are going to listen to racers more than keyboard chasers.
-The MX1K is a VERY fun race, but it is also VERY expensive. So when you are doing a moon launch, you want to make sure you are prepared and you have the right equipment on your Rocket. Otherwise you will likely spend the night in the desert (or floating around in space) and likely won't come back again. I have seen it (think Jimmy Johnson).
-Just for some perspective for those who don't race or don't race any more...entry with membership and team wrist bands is over $4k. Hotels for the crew for 11 days over $4k. Gas for two chase trucks and race car $3500, food and drinks $2k, etc. More expensive than the Baja 1000 due to 30% more mileage and twice as many days.
-I DNFed MX1K in 2013 on day one and was gutted. I learned some very expensive lessons. I vowed that the next time I came back I would have strong equipment, built to the rules and make sure I finish.
-I am not happy with the direction that this thread has taken, but I am very happy with my decision to race the MX1K again and my decisions when rebuilding the car.
-Most of the museum cars (tribute cars, famous cars, etc) will likely not be raced much, if at all for reasons explained previously.
-If the rules are restricted too much, the car count will dwindle IMO. I have seen it happen before.
-Good rules and rule stability helps increase car count. I believe they should keep the rules the same until car count gets to a critical mass then if necessary tighten things up.
-NORRA has too many classes
-No class should have less than three entrants. If you can't rally your fellow racers in class to come out, then you should be bumped up to the next class.
-Winning your class when there is only one or two people signed up is finishing not 'winning.' IMO.
-I can't wait for next year!
 
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Rory

Crayola Killer
"Mickey Thompson ran 35" tires on the Raceco that he won the 1982 Baja 1000 in. "

Don't think so. I believe the car he actually won the 1000 in were 33" Edwards recaps. That would be the yellow car. He later had a blue Raceco that had 35" Mickeys on the rear, but that was probably 5-6 years later, maybe longer. Guys were running 6 cylinder Porsche motors and 1 guy has returned with one of those in his vintage car. As it was. Your car is cool, but it is kind of disappointing that it was not rebuilt in a manner that represented the days it raced.

35x11.50x15 Mickey Thompson Baja Belted tires is what they were running on the back of the 1982 Baja 1000 winning Raceco. I bought 2 old sets from Harley Letner for both the Larry Ragland Woodstuff buggy and the 82 Raceco (as I was going to buy it until the Toyota deal was struck). I then traded them to Matt for a set of old beat up Jackman wheels.

IMG_0619.JPG


MT 82 B1K trackside.JPG
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
Thank you Rory. The shocks are not bypass shocks. Walker Evans doesn't even make bypass shocks. Somebody protested me for the aforementioned after the finish of the race...and Chris Wilson investigated and proved me legal. Guys...if someone has questions regarding my car, why not come up and ask me?

I am not a cheater and to call me out, is to call me a 'cheater.' I didn't even win: I got second in class 33rd OA. Ted Baker beat me fair and square. And I am ok with that. Great job Ted! It just gives me motivation to come back next year and do better.

The adjuster knob on the shocks is simply a compression damping adjuster, just like you could adjust compression damping on Koni shocks back in the 70's. No oil 'bypasses' the piston externally or internally. Call Reid Nordin or Randy Anderson at Walker Evans Racing Shocks and ask them if you don't believe me. I put duct tape on them so nobody would mess with the adjusters. I also put duct tape on my gas cap for the same reason.

I DO NOT cheat. I simply follow the rules. Case in point; I was made aware when I was protested, that if they bumped me up a class to vintage 4-cyl, I would WIN THAT CLASS. Again, I knew this when I fought the protest. But I built the car for the Challenger class and I belong in the Challenger class. I was happy racing my fellow competitors in Challenger and in doing so...I got second. Sooooo....I fought the protest knowing I would get second if I won the protect....if I didn't fight it or lost the protest, I would have won the class they bumped me up into. Get it?

So to recap...I literally just walked in the door after taking five days to get home from Cabo to show my wife around Baja. After 29 years of marriage I finally talked her into coming down to help chase a Baja race. She loved it! I just logged into RDC after two weeks away from this website...only to be called a cheater by some knob who joined the site TODAY. I would have much rather seen a 'congrats on the finish' or a 'car looked great.'
You have NOTHING to be shamed or ridiculed for, and any negative is crap. All I hear is this is suppose to be a fun event, PROTEST??? are you kidding who protests on a race(event) like this. Sounds to me the fun part went out the window. As a 1982 Race-co 1600 owner I personally love what you did to this car, I totally get the expense of putting a type 4 engine in it(but would have been so cool) Congratulations on the 2nd place, as they say you came a long way baby from what it was when you bought it. Great job
 

bajaxp

Baja Bobsled Team
Thanks King Dave. You seriously made my day! I know the bus box and type iv cost because I am restoring Mickey's '82 winner to be as original as possible...crazy expensive. My goals for my two Racecos are very different and thus are rebuilt in a different way. Thanks again for the kind words!
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
That is super cool you have MTs Raceco, MT was very good to me at a early age in my racing, and I had mad respect for him. I talked with him in staging at the 82 1000 which was a very tiny race that year. The smallest 1000 I am sure. He really didnt feel confident racing a small buggy like that, he told me so. I am sure that car had to feel like a matchbox compaired to his regular specials.Probobly the reason he went so fast as it most likley felt slow but was really fast lol. Ment to ask what are you going to do with the MT car? Norra?
 
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