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rules changes

martininsocal

Well-Known Member
Why do they have to keep changing rules to suit individual needs? I am getting tired of spending money on something only to have it become obsolete before it gets finished.

7s-why a bigger motor? more hp means more parts breakage, which requires more money to build for longevity. if you want to run 400 hp-race a class 8 or 7 open. the 7s guys should be required to run the 4 cylinder motors that every truck is available with. if not, make it a 3.0 liter maximum.

1/2-1600, 5-1600-first it was the altered drums as a safety issue. by replacing the drums centers, they would be less breakage. while this seems noble, the 1600 guys weren't busting drums like madmen, it was the 9 guys and they can't use them. now we have the new kartek rear set-up with the micro stubs. you can get more travel due to longer axle lengths/reduced angle on cv's. they say it is safer because the micro stubbs won't break like the type 1 style stubs. it is safer and cheaper. how many stubs are the 1600 guys breaking out there? it won't be any safer. as for the cost, it will be about the same as buying the same set-up with disc brakes! you want safer? let them run disc brakes! the ability to stop faster is one of the single biggest improvements you can do to make any vehicle safer. it is about more money for the manufacturers, not safety.

make rules for a class and leave them alone! just because some manufacturer builds a more expensive mouse trap doesn't mean you have to allow it in the class. they should have never allowed the upgrades to longer rear arms in 5-1600 nor 930 cv's. the class was fine without those changes. now cars will need new rear arms, stubs, brake set-ups, etc...

as for the motor rule in 7s-it is suppose to be a limited class, limit it!

martin

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
The motor thing is very frustrating. 7's why not a $2000 motor claim rule (long block). 4cyl, 6cyl. The stock v6 ford rangers now come with a 210 hp v6. The Toyota come with a 195hp v6. The chevy 4.3Lv6 is also a great motor I do not know what the power is. But I do know that these motors work great.
Now for class 7 open. Why not a small block V8 motor with a claim rule of $5000 long block.
This can get crazy but these are just a few ideas on how to make it less money and more fun. I do not see the point of a $20K v6 that needs a 6-8k rebuild every 1000 mi. The 4.5L v6 that most Rangers run in 7 open never came in a truck so why cant we run a v8??
I do not have the answer to the problem but at the rate we are going people will lose interest really fast in this sport. It is to expensive to maintain these trucks or buggys for what we get in return.
 

DPpatrol

Well-Known Member
I'm am somewhat new to the race scene, but from what I have experianced so far offroad racers in all classes are forced to put up lots of money and then get very little in turn. If the sanctioning bodies are going change the rules in order to allow faster trucks in classes which are meant to be limited (7s for example), which effectively raises the cost of racing in these classes, the sanctioning bodies should take it upon themselves to reach out to sponsers and to television in order to get higher purses and more money into our sport. The sanctioning bodies have a very marketable product to offer the television corporations. If they were able to "sell" more races to broadcasting companys, sponsers would be more willing to give money to the owners and the sactioning bodies who could then increase purses to make it justifiable for a 7s racer to spend $10 k on a motor. However untill the sanctioning bodies are able to bring more money to off-road racing, they owe it the limited class racers to keep their classes what they were meant to be, limited. That way racers can continutue to afford to race.

jason
 

Ryno

Well-Known Member
Jerry-

I agree with what you are saying, but with the dollar amount, you're going to have people doing cash jobs, and a little tweaking here, a little tweaking there. I agree that the less you can spend on a motor, the less you will in turn have to spend on other driveline goodies, like that 10k transmission that keeps blowing up, or a 3k rearend. There is no easy way to get everyone honest, and no easy way to regulate motor size, when the truly know, means taking off the heads, measuring the bores, etc. I think the dyno thing is better. I think 7s should be limited to 300hp. 7 open maybe 425, 450. I don't know what they are pushing now, a decently built 4.3 Chevy will easily do 300hp. You can do that for about 3-4k. I think a nicely built Ford 3.0 or 4.0 will do about the same. Pay for the dyno by entry fees being $50 more each race. Nothing big, but alot of $$$ if you think about it. You can get a portable dyno for 7-10k, and regulate. I know it sounds like alot of work, this is my best idea yet. The less $$$ you can spend, the better racing will be, and the more guys will be out there.

Ryno

Build it like a Rhino, and Leave it be.
 

DailyPedal

Well-Known Member
Martin, I feel your pain dude, but you seem to be a bit of a retro grouch. So I will only comment on your 1600 issues because I can relate. First, would you rather see 1600-5/1600 go back to all type 1 VW parts? Like stock arms, spindles and rear trailing arms? And what about the type 1 trans. We had almost $4000 in one trying to get it to live in a 5/1600 in the early 80's. And every race was a crapshoot as to which VW part would decide to fail during a race. All were checked, maged, and so on. The new arms by Kartek address the issue of a general lack of availability of quality new and used parts to keep screwing on these limited cars. No good link pin spindles and arms, go to chromoly(lasts for years now). No good type1 trans output shaft, go to type 2 (actually cheaper to build). No good vw steer boxes, go to r/pinion(cheaper in the long run, not $130 thrown away every race). Now, no good stub axles or drums (without spending $500 pair for stubs) go to micro stub. Its evolution baby and sometimes, the racer benefits in less replacement costs in the long run because better parts are used from the start. Racers with older cars might want to pony up to the new stuff but there are still a lot of old-school cars out there that are very competitive. I guarantee, Kartek ain't doing this for the bucks, they did this because of the inconsistant supply of good stub axles and the ever increasing costs to produce their race drum kit. And you don't have any suggestions for improving anything. How about limiting travel, you know, like the truck classes. And what about the big dog bypass shocks? Tim Lindsay still wins in 5/1600 with little shocks, big bars and type 4 cvs. Old school. Can't win if you don't finish, and prep...prep...prep...If you have any further comment on this kit, why don't you call Kartek and ask for yourself.
 

DMSCHASE

Active Member
As far as 7s is concerned, did anyone see the radar times from Laughlin? The "Big Motor" 7s guys were as fast as the 7 Opens. 7s should go back to the 3.0 liter and under rule, and the "Big Motor" guys should go to 7 Open. The "Big Motor" guys can obviously hang with the 7 Opens.
 

martininsocal

Well-Known Member
what you fail to understand is that you have now built up a class that joe shmoe can't afford to build. no one was having problems with bus boxes, even in the 80's, they were legal then too. why the need for 930's? in the past, there was no need because the body was the ultimate limiter of up travel, but now you can rip out and replace the fenderwell with aluminum! why the 1" longer arm? i have a set of boxed stock rear arms that have lasted for years, no bends. just not longer. when you had to run the stock parts, you had to run slower to make them last. period. people started running faster and breaking stuff, then started whining about it. then they got stronger parts and the class just went up another notch in the cash department. 5-1600 is suppose to be a beginners class where costs are suppose to be reasonable to get started in racing. how much will a new, state of the art 5-1600 cost with all the best parts now? 25,000? that is not cheap. as for brake drums and stubs, i have some brand new type 181's in the box, and they were cheaper than the kartek drums. you could always run the bus drums, you won't break those! sure, some of the changes like stock steering boxes, or the original rear shock mounting location have gone by the wayside, but you still built the car out of vw parts for the most part. now the only thing vw is the pan, what remains of teh body, and the bus trans case. keep the entry level classes entry level, thats all i'm saying. the more you make it a rich mans sport, the more it becomes one.

martin

If your gonna go, go BIG
 

DailyPedal

Well-Known Member
Martin, I do understand your point, its just that I have been involved with 1600 cars of one type or another for the last 20 years and during that time I have seen the availability of the quality OE parts that were around 5 or 10 years ago disappear. And as far as "beginner class" that's what all of the sportsman classes are all about. If a car or truck is too expensive to build, find a class that fits the budget, it has always been that way, it was that way for you and for me, and it will never change. It doesn't matter what type, round-d-round, drag or whatever. And tell it to the 70 1600 drivers at Parker that they need to go back to VW parts and see what response you get. It's too bad 5/1600 is not what it used to be but then, off road racing is not what it used to be. In the mid 70's and into the early 80's we built our own car from the ground up (we were required to run a type 1 trans back then) all of the partners were factory trained VW mechanics, but it was still so expensive and so much work to prep that we had three partners in it to share expenses and still we only were able to race a couple of races a year, if that. If we had the car built by a builder back then, it probably would have cost 12 to 17 grand, and now its almost 25. Not bad considering it's been 20 years. I think overall, at the end of the year a racer will have spent less money to race a more dependable car today than we did. That's why you see racers racing 10 and 15 year-old 1600 cars still today.
 

wayne_demonja

Well-Known Member
i agree stay with the 3 liter engine rule for 7s this is a limited class or to say a production class. big engines go to the unlimited class 7 were the suspension rules are more open. keep 7s as a production truck with a concept of mini truck in mind with a small 3 liter engine.

wayne

colorado racer
 
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