Runing Upside Down Dry Sump?

C

customcreationsllc

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My goal is to be able to run everything upside down without consequences.

Rock Crawling you're eventually going to roll and its worth hitting the gas to get it to roll back over. But that cannot be good running the engine with no Oil Pressure.

So I was thinking.
If I get a 3 or 4 stage dry sump can I plumb one or two to the Valve cover?
So I'll get oil even upside down.

Question is will the stage plumbed to the valve cover burn up since it will hardly ever see oil?

Will the dry sump plumbed to the top work for sucking fumes out of my engine so no PCV valve for a sealed engine block.

I'll just have to set up a dual vent on the dry sump oil tank.
One vents the top and one vents the bottom. So it will loose a little bit of oil whatever is in the line.

It might burn a little oil blow with the oil sitting on the pistons.
But it should get flung around and back to the valve cover.

My biggest worry is burning up the Dry sump pump.
I also thought about maybe Splitting the lines, a little line from the oil pan just enough the lube to the pump.

Any thoughts?


Ecotec Motor running off Propane.

Coolant naturally self sealed.
Standard Trans/ manual T-case
Power steering accumulator/closed loop system, I know people who have done it before.
 
racer56

racer56

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Check out how airplane engines are setup, they run upside down with no problems.
 
movindirt

movindirt

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Is it going to be like on of those RC cars that can drive upside down?



http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3105935
 
S

SuperRanger

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We have done 50+ rockcrawling events with no dry sump and no engine problems. The oil pressure is sometimes 0 but I have never worried about it. It sounds cheezy, but we use AMSOIL. :) Very few use dry sumps or accumulators.
 
Chase 2

Chase 2

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PDAILEY to the white courtesy phone please...
 
C

customcreationsllc

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I too have never seen a rock crawlers use dry sump. How long do those bearings last without oil?
I guess you wouldn't be building a lot of HP with the tires barely on the ground.


At first I was thinking of using an accusump but you still need oil pressure to fill it, there only good for max 60sec.
When you're crawling sideways. there cannot be much oil getting to your bearings.
A normal drysump would just drown the engine in 4 gallons of oil.
So I thought just put one of the scavenge sump pick-ups on each side of the valve cover will replenish the oil tank.


I'm just think of longevity of the motor.
To me it would be worth the extra money to know I'm not going to starve my engine, the extra money spent would be saved from not having to rebuild the motor.

So the question is will I burn out a stage of the pump if no oil is getting to it?
Just like if you didn't even have one of the stages hooked up.




I couldn't this engine has any oil pressure there.



Quote from www.gotpropane .com
"This is a perfect example of the propane's ability to run at any angle. This really is a picture of my truck driving on it's side in one of the nastiest local trails. Believe it or not, things are actually going really well in this picture. Without the propane kit this trail would be impossible."
 
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zukIzzy

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customcreationsllc said:
I too have never seen a rock crawlers use dry sump. How long do those bearings last without oil?
I guess you wouldn't be building a lot of HP with the tires barely on the ground.


At first I was thinking of using an accusump but you still need oil pressure to fill it, there only good for max 60sec.
When you're crawling sideways. there cannot be much oil getting to your bearings.
A normal drysump would just drown the engine in 4 gallons of oil.
So I thought just put one of the scavenge sump pick-ups on each side of the valve cover will replenish the oil tank.


I'm just think of longevity of the motor.
To me it would be worth the extra money to know I'm not going to starve my engine, the extra money spent would be saved from not having to rebuild the motor.

So the question is will I burn out a stage of the pump if no oil is getting to it?
Just like if you didn't even have one of the stages hooked up.




I couldn't this engine has any oil pressure there.



Quote from www.gotpropane .com
"This is a perfect example of the propane's ability to run at any angle. This really is a picture of my truck driving on it's side in one of the nastiest local trails. Believe it or not, things are actually going really well in this picture. Without the propane kit this trail would be impossible."
Click to expand...

You can buy an invertable dry sump system if you wish but for the same $ you can have a spare crawler or several spare Ecotecs waiting on the trailer.

Ecotecs are cheap $550 max at the local junk yard less if you look. It is not worth the money to spend thousands to save hundreds.

And for your information the above poster SuperRanger is without question an authority on crawling. If he says it you can take it as gospel. If you really want to save the engine, use an acumulator and plumb in a low oil preasure shut off switch that kills the ignition when there is not oil preasure. You will need it to bypass when the momentary start button is pushed and you will be good to go. Nobody drive very far on their lid.

Good luck
Wayne
 
pdailey

pdailey

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Here is what my dad says. He is the zen master when it comes to creative stuff like this.

Quite the project. Everything you are trying to do is doable in my optinion. Just complicated. No issue in the pumps running dry. As long as they are connected to the engine they will suck an oil mist out and that is enough. We do this with vacuum pumps.

Take a look at the airplane industry for how they go dry sump. Not a perfect setup but will help. they use a check valve that is gravity sensitive. So if you dry sump the engine and have one section plumbed to this valve the bottom of it would just go back to the pan and the top would go to the valve cover. When you invert the check valve changes the inlet porting to the top of the valve cover and seals off the bottom line.

We do many pumps with torque converter pumps integrated into the dry sump. take a look at this page. http://www.daileyengineering.com/sp_other.htm Same scenario with the trans using the check valve.

The only problem I see with these valves is they like to either one way or the other. I don't know the logistics when you are tipped at a serious angle. I would think it would stay to the bottom until actually rolled over. If you land on your side than the valve is horizontal and no gravity acting on the valve. Not sure what it will do.

Also the oil tank for the dry sump needs to be addressed. I have been asked to help several crawlers with dry sumps but noone has stepped up. The issue with the tank is keeping the bottom of it full of oil and when you are at an angle the oil in the tank is at the same angle and allows air in the pickup. I think some kind of swinging oil tank would work kind of like hanging the tank from a ball joint. Not a simple task but if it was easy anyone could do it.

Bill
 
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