SCORE working on ttspec RULES....IDEAS???

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
the new tech director dan cornwell is working on cleaning up the ttspec rules for SCORE, (like what bitd did for 6100, before the problem got worse)....opinions??? one engine source with PRETAGGED engines?...let everyone tag there own engines and do whatever? ......limited tire size? other limitations? give your opinions now before its too late....
 

John F2000

Well-Known Member
Posts
664
Reaction
111
Just a few thoughts:

1. Leave all BITD rules in place, engine designation, tire size, trans, no gear reduction, etc..

2. Engine source, I know there are many thoughts here, independently tagged is a must, but whichever direction it goes on multiple sources, there needs to be a mandatory engine pull, or something similar, for any first place finisher at a minimum, performed by an independent source other than the primary company which tags the engines. Yes there is a cost associated, but if the class entry has a minor fee to pay for such an inspection it will be easily covered and not expensive. All rules are going to be broken if they can be, the only real correction is an actual threat that is guaranteed to take place at each and every finish, not one that causes an opponent to issue on the chance they think something is not fair with another team.

In the end the success of a class can be measured on the program a sanctioning body has made available and the number of entries. It is clear that 6100 is a very successful class, so don't mess with it. It is a proven fact in all spec class of racing in all organizations, that as the rules continue to change, adding cost, outdating cars, etc.. the class usually gets ruined.

It is very unusual in any racing organization, to a have a spec class with a basic set of rules, such as 6100, to have worked so well right out of the box, leave it alone, let it grow and work on enforcing the existing rules.

Anyways, my 2 cents worth.

We are looking forward to racing both series next year and would love one set of rules.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
Just a few thoughts:

1. Leave all BITD rules in place, engine designation, tire size, trans, no gear reduction, etc..

2. Engine source, I know there are many thoughts here, independently tagged is a must, but whichever direction it goes on multiple sources, there needs to be a mandatory engine pull, or something similar, for any first place finisher at a minimum, performed by an independent source other than the primary company which tags the engines. Yes there is a cost associated, but if the class entry has a minor fee to pay for such an inspection it will be easily covered and not expensive. All rules are going to be broken if they can be, the only real correction is an actual threat that is guaranteed to take place at each and every finish, not one that causes an opponent to issue on the chance they think something is not fair with another team.

In the end the success of a class can be measured on the program a sanctioning body has made available and the number of entries. It is clear that 6100 is a very successful class, so don't mess with it. It is a proven fact in all spec class of racing in all organizations, that as the rules continue to change, adding cost, outdating cars, etc.. the class usually gets ruined.

It is very unusual in any racing organization, to a have a spec class with a basic set of rules, such as 6100, to have worked so well right out of the box, leave it alone, let it grow and work on enforcing the existing rules.

Anyways, my 2 cents worth.

We are looking forward to racing both series next year and would love one set of rules.
rules ENFORCEMENT is the main issue.....bitd will NOT change to the 525hp engine and i HIGHLY doubt score will change to the 430hp....so to do both you are going to have to run the 430 at both or have 2 different engines and ecu's......
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
Posts
9,843
Reaction
1,167
In a perfect world SCORE would just follow the rules/engine type etc. where the class was created and working very well.

If SCORE won't follow the rules/engine type etc. already in place and working well then I guess we have two different engines.

In that case all engines should be purchased from Turnkey like in BITD and tagged by only Turnkey. Turnkey should also be present at the end of the race for full inspection at the finish line just like at the BITD races.

If that does not happen they why even have a tag in the first place?
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
In a perfect world SCORE would just follow the rules/engine type etc. where the class was created and working very well.

If SCORE won't follow the rules/engine type etc. already in place and working well then I guess we have two different engines.

In that case all engines should be purchased from Turnkey like in BITD and tagged by only Turnkey. Turnkey should also be present at the end of the race for full inspection at the finish line just like at the BITD races.

If that does not happen they why even have a tag in the first place?
this thread is for ideas from people that ACTUALLY race, thanx......
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,235
2. there needs to be a mandatory engine pull, or something similar, for any first place finisher at a minimum, performed by an independent source other than the primary company which tags the engines. .
In that case all engines should be purchased from Turnkey like in BITD and tagged by only Turnkey. Turnkey should also be present at the end of the race for full inspection at the finish line just like at the BITD races.
You guy's are on opposite sides here. Would either of you like to expand/explain your arguments a little more?

I don't have a dog in the fight here but this topic has been discussed before and it seems there is a strong argument to have an independent outside source without skin in the game to do the engine inspections.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
You guy's are on opposite sides here. Would either of you like to expand/explain your arguments a little more?

I don't have a dog in the fight here but this topic has been discussed before and it seems there is a strong argument to have an independent outside source without skin in the game to do the engine inspections.
you totally have dog in fight as you CONTINUOUSLY lobby for danzio.....so try to be honest if posting here, thanx
 

Chris Tobin

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,998
Reaction
1,177
Pete, I don't race in the class either, but I think I may have a decent solution for engine issues/accusations.

If full inspection out in an open desert environment and/or impound is too difficult I suggest that a "Claimer Rule" be added. At the conclusion each vehicle would be given a quick basic (non-invasive) inspection to insure that it is not obviously tampered with and the engine tags are still present. Any obvious tampering would result in a DQ for the event and minimum 1-year suspension from racing for the team.

Then ANY competitor in the class could "Claim" the engine from ANY other competitor for a set price that is approximately 75% (or so) of the cost of a new SPEC engine. If a team declines the engine Claim, they are ASSUMED to be cheating and are no longer allowed to race in that class. This way if Racer A feels that Racer B has hopped up his engine, he can Claim and run the engine in his truck and/or tear it down for inspection to verify any cheating that has taken place. Additionally it will help keep teams honest since they would not want to get caught or waste money on Cheater mods AND it would help prevent frivolous claims that Racer B is cheating because he is sooo much faster than Racer A...

My 2 cents...
 

43mod

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,348
Reaction
2,682
charge enough entry fee to buy the winner a new engine. New engine on location at end of race,tag the race engine and 48hrs to remove or put in impound. Refusal is DQ and 1 year suspension . Full tear down and inspection live on RDC with auction of reassembled engine . Profit to back into class purse or charity.
This is so simple I think Pete and Jerry could agree to it. Sorry Pete I wont ever get to race this class but you got my .03 anyway.
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,235
you totally have dog in fight as you CONTINUOUSLY lobby for danzio.....so try to be honest if posting here, thanx
I think you have me/my comments mistaken for Jasons. I kept my mouth shut when you guys were going back and fourth last time because I don't belong in that conversation since I am not a builder, dealer or racer.

Since I get to crew for the Danzio TTTT (as a fueler usually) it could be said that I am involved with Danzio. I live hundreds of miles away from there, work somewhere else and can barely change my own oil though so... The owners and employees are my friends also/obviously. Of course I want them to do well at their business. I also want the playing field to be level in 6100 and let the driving be what determines winners and losers.

I have no idea who builds cheater motors and who doesn't but I certainly don't like that it goes on and hope a way to stop it happens.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
Pete, I don't race in the class either, but I think I may have a decent solution for engine issues/accusations.

If full inspection out in an open desert environment and/or impound is too difficult I suggest that a "Claimer Rule" be added. At the conclusion each vehicle would be given a quick basic (non-invasive) inspection to insure that it is not obviously tampered with and the engine tags are still present. Any obvious tampering would result in a DQ for the event and minimum 1-year suspension from racing for the team.

Then ANY competitor in the class could "Claim" the engine from ANY other competitor for a set price that is approximately 75% (or so) of the cost of a new SPEC engine. If a team declines the engine Claim, they are ASSUMED to be cheating and are no longer allowed to race in that class. This way if Racer A feels that Racer B has hopped up his engine, he can Claim and run the engine in his truck and/or tear it down for inspection to verify any cheating that has taken place. Additionally it will help keep teams honest since they would not want to get caught or waste money on Cheater mods AND it would help prevent frivolous claims that Racer B is cheating because he is sooo much faster than Racer A...

My 2 cents...
i like claimer idea but most dont......i like NEW SEALED from ONE supplier....but others dont, most do but not all
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
charge enough entry fee to buy the winner a new engine. New engine on location at end of race,tag the race engine and 48hrs to remove or put in impound. Refusal is DQ and 1 year suspension . Full tear down and inspection live on RDC with auction of reassembled engine . Profit to back into class purse or charity.
This is so simple I think Pete and Jerry could agree to it. Sorry Pete I wont ever get to race this class but you got my .03 anyway.
i dont understand why we would need to buy anyone an engine ....we SIMPLY want everyone to be running the same FACTORY BUILT, SEALED, UNMONKEYEDWITH engine....engine tuning on FACTORY ecu is still open as well as the headers......
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,235
i like claimer idea but most dont......i like NEW SEALED from ONE supplier....but others dont, most do but not all
I like the claimer idea also.

Pete, why should this be limited to just one supplier though? Would it be enough to have any engine tagged by its builder and then in the event of a win/podium have that engine be scrutinized by a thorough post tech inspection?
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
I like the claimer idea also.

Pete, why should this be limited to just one supplier though? Would it be enough to have any engine tagged by its builder and then in the event of a win/podium have that engine be scrutinized by a thorough post tech inspection?
yes, i realize you want to play cat and mouse like nascar where builders cheat then officials try to catch them......presealed stock engines is MUCH cheaper for all involved......except your "friends"......
 

dan200

#BSF200
Posts
15,784
Reaction
7,235
yes, i realize you want to play cat and mouse like nascar where builders cheat then officials try to catch them......presealed stock engines is MUCH cheaper for all involved......except your "friends"......
Ok fair enough. I'm not lobbying by the way and I don't want to play cat and mouse. I'm trying to understand this better is all and let this conversation be easier to understand (because this forum has bad communicators who do poor jobs of getting the points across and explaining themselves and their opinions.)

Anyway, Im going back to work now...
 

Jerry Zaiden

Well-Known Member
Posts
9,843
Reaction
1,167
this thread is for ideas from people that ACTUALLY race, thanx......
So being a builder of these trucks that do race and get on the podium doesn't count?

Or is it what I said goes against what you agenda is?

All you do is argue with people and put people down. It is really getting old.

Good luck working well with people I am sure you will get things sorted on your own.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
In a perfect world SCORE would just follow the rules/engine type etc. where the class was created and working very well.

If SCORE won't follow the rules/engine type etc. already in place and working well then I guess we have two different engines.

In that case all engines should be purchased from Turnkey like in BITD and tagged by only Turnkey. Turnkey should also be present at the end of the race for full inspection at the finish line just like at the BITD races.

If that does not happen they why even have a tag in the first place?
if it "worked very well" then why did bitd change the rules SO MANY TIMES???? bitd has changed the engine rules so many times i cant keep track.....3,4,5 different ford engines available now??? or not, i dont even know......rules not being followed is why they most recently changed the rule again to try and get a handle on it......SCORE has new tech guy and he wants to get a handle on the class as well, pretty simple.....
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Posts
3,761
Reaction
1,352
Pete, Could an engine lease program work for this class? This way you don’t own the engine, so your less likely to tamper with it. The engine supplier could also request the engine back at any time and swap it with another engine? Maybe after a race the top 3 trucks have their engines pulled and inspected? Or maybe be put on a chassis Dyno? If ECU’s are an issue, those could also be provided by the engine supplier too.

I know this is not NASCAR but next year the Truck series is going to a Spec engine and those engines will be owned by the engine supplier. The teams will be required to race the same engine a few times before they can change it out unless they lose the engine during the race.

The initial cost might be a bit more as you would have to pay for a full season or whatever the terms are by the engine supplier. But if you lost an engine, then next race you would get another one as part of the lease. If you missed a race, we’ll you already prepaid, so the supplier still got paid.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,368
Reaction
6,797
Pete, Could an engine lease program work for this class? This way you don’t own the engine, so your less likely to tamper with it. The engine supplier could also request the engine back at any time and swap it with another engine? Maybe after a race the top 3 trucks have their engines pulled and inspected? Or maybe be put on a chassis Dyno? If ECU’s are an issue, those could also be provided by the engine supplier too.

I know this is not NASCAR but next year the Truck series is going to a Spec engine and those engines will be owned by the engine supplier. The teams will be required to race the same engine a few times before they can change it out unless they lose the engine during the race.

The initial cost might be a bit more as you would have to pay for a full season or whatever the terms are by the engine supplier. But if you lost an engine, then next race you would get another one as part of the lease. If you missed a race, we’ll you already prepaid, so the supplier still got paid.
i like that idea but think its HIGHLY unlikely.....who eats when they explode? one will ALWAYS blame the other....kinda like when trans fail, trans guy blames converter guy and converter guy blames trans guy, and both blame driver.....continuous pissing contest....i think new engines only, which are all from one supplier already/chevrolet is the best scenario....we just need better rules and ONE distributor/sealer/oil pan changer.....turnkey now does bitd exclusively and im fine with them doing SCORE.....if you are a turnkey hater or SCORE hater your opinions here are not going to be much help/jerry...
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Posts
12,413
Reaction
7,490
I understand why everyone doesn't want their engine tore down at the end of the race, but I don't think this class is being supported by mostly bootstrap racers, so... Do a lottery draw before the race that determines if and who gets torn down. If there are 10 trucks, 10% get torn down. Lottery pull for none, 1st, second, or third gets torn down. If nothing is wrong with the motor, the class entry fee includes, say, 200 bucks per entry for the torn down motor to go to Turnkey to be cleaned and put back together as it was at the end of the race and resealed and returned to the racer. If it is illegal, DQ and 1 year suspension. If the 'none' ball gets pulled, the top 3 split the extra money as a bonus. Claimers are fine until someone gets claimed, then cars get wrecked on the course, motors suddenly find sand or sugar in fuel tanks, etc... In theory it's a great idea, in reality, in causes problems if you aren't racing every week.
 
Top