SCORE working on ttspec RULES....IDEAS???

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
Wait... so who is cheating again?
Ohhhhh that’s right there are no FACTS or PHYSICAL PROOF that anyone is cheating in this class!
You do realize that sends a very different message than “we at Danzio would never break the rules or the spirit of the 6100 class” right? Which is the point that Chris and Vegasloki are making.
 

Robin Hood

Well-Known Member
I agree 100% with what you've said. Why would Danzio (or any other engine builder) want their name tied to a motor that they didn't handle from start to finish?

FWIW, I have spent $0 with Danzio.
You do realize that these motors are built by GM...so the "engine builder" is not the engine builder, they are a contributing party to the final product that makes up the race vehicle. Based on the rules the engine assembler is GM and no one else should ever handle them from "start to finish".

This is not about margins. The margin they are losing on the motor sale would just be built into the rest of the package so the profit/overhead would be the same.
 

JBSTEVENS44

Well-Known Member
Remember when NASCAR used to use a mobile dyno after the races? They realized it was pretty easy to game the system and they started impounding the cars they wanted to test and take them back to the R&D center for testing. A Gibbs car was caught cheating by placing a magnet under the throttle pedal so that it did not have 100% throttle for the dyno test and would measure at less HP than it was actually making. That was with carburated engines, just think what can be done with EFI engines... Think about what VW was doing with emissions testing on chassis dynos. Cheaters are going to cheat, dragging a dyno out into the middle of the desert is not going to catch them...

I am around chassis dynos A LOT, almost all of our diesel events we cover have dyno competitions and there are tons of variables!!! Dynos are great tuning tools, but to try to keep a level playing field in a SPEC engine class there are better alternatives.
Interesting and sad. I guess your right. My mind just doesn't really work the same way as a cheater I guess. But I guess your right. People are always going to cheat.

As a business owner I just don't like the monopoly of a single engine provider.
 
Wait... so who is cheating again?
Ohhhhh that’s right there are no FACTS or PHYSICAL PROOF that anyone is cheating in this class!
Only what someone “thinks” is happening because they are getting beat. :rolleyes:

@fishd00d @pdailey @dan200 @philofab
Can we please just destroy this thread with a LONG CAT post I know one of you know how to make it happen.:D:D:D:D
Jason,

I broke my no forum posting rule. I totally know better.

George Carlin — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.'
 

masleca

Well-Known Member
Josh / Chris,
It was great to see you guys post again........BUT the way this site is going over the last year or so, it wasn't going to end well !!! I think you knew that, though ;)

I'm still trying to figure why I broke the "No Posting" rule too, haha

Carry on.........
 

bajafox

Accepted
Josh / Chris,
It was great to see you guys post again........BUT the way this site is going over the last year or so, it wasn't going to end well !!! I think you knew that, though ;)

I'm still trying to figure why I broke the "No Posting" rule too, haha

Carry on.........
Because people who have nothing to do with the class were posting so why not you? Lol

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
 

BigBlue&Goldie

Well-Known Member
You do realize that these motors are built by GM...so the "engine builder" is not the engine builder, they are a contributing party to the final product that makes up the race vehicle. Based on the rules the engine assembler is GM and no one else should ever handle them from "start to finish".

This is not about margins. The margin they are losing on the motor sale would just be built into the rest of the package so the profit/overhead would be the same.
You're choosing to ignore the point I'm trying to make with ridiculous statements. I could care less about Danzio (no offense guys), but I agree with their position. If this was truly a class where the motor was installed "as is" out of the crate with a stock tune then I would feel different. Once it's been tuned, had "legal" parts installed, etc., the engine builder, shop, tuner (whatever semantic you chose to call them) has their name tied to it.
 

Slippery P

Well-Known Member
You do realize that sends a very different message than “we at Danzio would never break the rules or the spirit of the 6100 class” right? Which is the point that Chris and Vegasloki are making.
Sorry man I thought I laid the sarcasm on pretty heavy.

The point is Dirty Harry rules have now been changed solely on an assumption with no facts to back up the accusations. To be honest I would have had a lot more respect for Pete if he would have called out whoever he thought was cheating,weather it be a racer or engine builder, and had an engine torn down rather than stomping his feet and blowing up BITDs phone for a week.

The monopoly of the engine supply due to these changes effects more people negatively than just a “little boutique shop in so cal”

Oh and Vegasloki the only one coming off condescending and arrogant in this thread is yourself go back and read some of you posts. The owners of Danzio have done nothing but post facts weather it be business related or from a Performance standpoint.
 

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
Sorry man I thought I laid the sarcasm on pretty heavy.

<snip>

Oh and Vegasloki the only one coming off condescending and arrogant in this thread is yourself...
Again, I don't think the sarcasm is going to gain you any customers, or support for your cause on RDC for that matter.

The monopoly of the engine supply due to these changes effects more people negatively than just a “little boutique shop in so cal”.
Dude, this is a SPEC ENGINE class. Sorry that there is a monopoly on engine supply. As others have noted, that should not stop you from providing data logging/tuning/wiring/accessories to your customers in the 6100 class. If there isn't any monkey business I seriously don't understand the need to have an engine prior to it being tagged, but I'm not saying anything that has already been said previously in this thread.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
Team DANZIO burying themselves withOUT any help from me......everything you guys CLAIM you do for your customers can still be done....except touching the SEALED engines that GM built , and having YOUR "logging" ecu wired into the harness.....your 6100 business should be exactly the same....explain what could be different....
 

slicric

Well-Known Member
So the ONLY things that can be modified in these engines are: all these are options you don't have to do these.

1) changing the oil pan $410 from Turn Key (if you don't want the stock high volume pan)
2) changing to a high volume oil pump $215 from Turn Key
3) changing to an "upgraded" time chain adjuster? $30 from Turn Key

Labor to install oil pump, chain guide, damper, fuel rails, oil pan $400 from turnkey.

So let me get this right... Danzio won't work on a GM crate engine that has no internal mods other than an oil pump and tensioner (if that is what danzio actaully wants done)... all because they didn't install those 2 items. OR am i missing something. If someone brought Danzio a bone stock engine with just the 2 internal mods and (for sake of argument an oil pan) installed and Danzio gets to add everything else... meziere acc drive, meziere starter, ATI damper, wiring harness, oil adapter, fuel rails, tuning, etc... That isn't where they are making the money?

People keep referring to a monopoly for a single engine supplier.... Does anyone have proof that the price is absurdly high from Turn key compared to JEGS or SUMMIT? The base engine 430HP or 525HP. I understand the theory behind the monopoly thinking... but has it shown up yet? Are you trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
 

BANNED4LIFE

Well-Known Member
So the ONLY things that can be modified in these engines are: all these are options you don't have to do these.

1) changing the oil pan $410 from Turn Key (if you don't want the stock high volume pan)
2) changing to a high volume oil pump $215 from Turn Key
3) changing to an "upgraded" time chain adjuster? $30 from Turn Key

Labor to install oil pump, chain guide, damper, fuel rails, oil pan $400 from turnkey.

So let me get this right... Danzio won't work on a GM crate engine that has no internal mods other than an oil pump and tensioner (if that is what danzio actaully wants done)... all because they didn't install those 2 items. OR am i missing something. If someone brought Danzio a bone stock engine with just the 2 internal mods and (for sake of argument an oil pan) installed and Danzio gets to add everything else... meziere acc drive, meziere starter, ATI damper, wiring harness, oil adapter, fuel rails, tuning, etc... That isn't where they are making the money?

People keep referring to a monopoly for a single engine supplier.... Does anyone have proof that the price is absurdly high from Turn key compared to JEGS or SUMMIT? The base engine 430HP or 525HP. I understand the theory behind the monopoly thinking... but has it shown up yet? Are you trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
Turnkey is required to price match....and they do.....Will danzio PLEASE post their price list....show me the cost savings to the ttspec/6100 group, so we can make an informed decision on which supplier to go with.....
 
You all can do what you want but Danzio is the best. We are one of the "drive way teams " that is not well funded but we will always find the dollars to have Danzio supply the engine. We had a misfire at Pahrump that we could not repair . The race support team drove out to our rental house and fixed the issue. Driving 1000 miles to race and not getting to race would be hard to take but with there support in finding a broken wire buried in the loom we were golden. This post is not about Danzio but rules that make sense. If you want the service and piece of mind you have to pay for it ............
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
But the loom that was bad was made by Danzio? I don't understand your post otherwise. I know in the past, where spec or crate motors were involved and there was no custody key from factory to end user, there has been plenty of monkey business. May not be from Danzio, but things like buying 10 engines and tearing them all down to find the best lightest balanced set of pistons, rods, etc.. and assembling 1 or 2 great engines and putting the others back together to be sold as B program motors without support from the guys who just assembled some great 'factory' crate engines to be tagged and sold to A customers is absolutely not unheard of. The idea that a company doesn't make enough money off a motor package because they don't get to sell the factory crate motor with everything else appears suspicious on its face. I have heard what teams are paying for Danzios harnesses, tunes, and dyno time. They are making way more on those than they ever would on the mark-up of a crate motor. Now if they want to come out and say that they simply don't give their best harness, or tune, etc... to any team that comes in and pays for those things but doesn't buy the crate motor from them, well, you can figure out the difference between an 'A' program and a 'B' program.
 

Mark Newhan

Well-Known Member
But the loom that was bad was made by Danzio? I don't understand your post otherwise. I know in the past, where spec or crate motors were involved and there was no custody key from factory to end user, there has been plenty of monkey business. May not be from Danzio, but things like buying 10 engines and tearing them all down to find the best lightest balanced set of pistons, rods, etc.. and assembling 1 or 2 great engines and putting the others back together to be sold as B program motors without support from the guys who just assembled some great 'factory' crate engines to be tagged and sold to A customers is absolutely not unheard of. The idea that a company doesn't make enough money off a motor package because they don't get to sell the factory crate motor with everything else appears suspicious on its face. I have heard what teams are paying for Danzios harnesses, tunes, and dyno time. They are making way more on those than they ever would on the mark-up of a crate motor. Now if they want to come out and say that they simply don't give their best harness, or tune, etc... to any team that comes in and pays for those things but doesn't buy the crate motor from them, well, you can figure out the difference between an 'A' program and a 'B' program.

I should have my head examined for getting into this thread. But hear it goes.

Just like the amber lights thread... just because you use the best equipment doesn't insure you will never have an issue. There are a thousand reasons that you can have a wire fail in a loom. Anyone remember when Robby Gordon was on his way to victory in a NASCAR event when the in-car camera caught fire?

The 27 has been taken out by a GM MAP sensor years ago at the Mint with Rob Mac behind the wheel. We've had pins fail in the Cannon plugs. S-hit happens and the environment we race in is far from a safe place.

The best engine builders in this sport saw broken engines at this years Baja 1000. S-happens, the best wiring guys had issues, S-happens. There were plenty of broken shocks, transmissions, wheels, tires and everything else imaginable.

If James Lin was in here saying the same things as (regrettably I'm sure) Josh and Chris, y'all would be saying the same things. I'm not sure what drives this, maybe it's the cost of their services.... most of you guys coming down on them will probably never need their services, but some (or at least their teams) may.
 

vegasloki

Well-Known Member
The monopoly of the engine supply due to these changes effects more people negatively than just a “little boutique shop in so cal”
While off road hasn't seen this a single source supply is pretty common in spec classes. You guys are acting like you've discovered the earth isn't flat when everyone else has known that for hundreds of years. You are trotting out the same worn out excuses and complaints. If the class thinks they are getting gouged the sanction can negociate a price control.

As for me posting in the thread I've been in and around spec classes for a while. Probably half the time I was driving. I think I can add some perspective as to what happens when you go spec. Pretty much every time a sealed/spec part is introduced (not just in off road but in all racing) to a class that hasn't had it before the sky is falling, it will be the end of the world and Obama is coming for our guns and freedom. The reality is you'll save some money because of the lack of engine wars and the guy that you think is beating you because he has more ponies or was cheating will still probably be beating you.
 

Chris@DanZio

Well-Known Member
Nobody answered my question ?

"Next question.. take a 525hp GM ls3... what do you have to do to it to get more HP ? And how much extra can you get ? Keep in mind this has to be done so it’s hard to detect."

Nobody is taking up my offer ?

"If anyone on here wants to be present for a engine Dyno session on one of our 6100 engines I'm happy to show someone the process involved, It would answer and clarify what we do and how we are different."

We will Even Run a engine on a GM ECU and a LR ECU to show the difference.
 
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