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SCORE's Proposed rule changes in class 11

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
Taken from the Class 11 Forum:

"Rule changes coming that will allow more gusseting to the Front Beam, and additional support to Shock Towers.
Disk Brakes will be an option, as well, Master Cylinder.
Chromoly Tie Rods, and Stainless Hiems--optional as well
Saco style steering box--optional
Steering shaft, open for modification

still in the mix,,,, cutting rear lid to allow for Low Compression Air Box
Cutting bottom edge of rear part of front fenders to the same hight as body pan
Ring and Pinion options,,, Open

I think that's about it,,,could be more!"

SCORE has proposed these rule changes to SCORE's class 11 rules due to cars not being able to finish the races in the allotted time now. What these rules will do is essentially turn class 11 into what 5-1600 used to be before microstubs. As a class 11 racer spending my own money building a car to race SCORE I am against these rule changes. Since the rule changes have been kept somewhat hush hush up until this point in time, there hasn't been much opposition to these new proposed rule changes because only a select few have known about them. I'm hoping that making this aware to all racers will help them voice their opinion to SCORE about the potential destruction of class 11. The only way to stop this is for racers inside and outside of the class to let SCORE know how they feel about the new proposed rule changes.

I feel as though since this is one of the last nostalgic classes left in SCORE the rules should be left the way they are or other rules should be thought about first. Anyone who races the class should email SCORE to express their opinion for or against these proposed changes because SCORE is looking to put the classes racers first but hasn't heard from any of them.

Thanks for your time reading this.
 

RedRide

Well-Known Member
The proposed changes don't make sense because they will not make the car any faster. Even if an 11 car has no mechanical issues, they cannot make the cutoff times. It comes down to the fact that the courses are super torn up by the time the 11's come through.


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NIKAL

Well-Known Member
If Score wants to help the class 11 cars finish, then extend the time limit to a reasonable time, allowing for some down time or everyone else's bottle necks that they have to wait in. Don't modify the cars!

I say reduce the TT & class 1 time limits to make it more challenging for them and extend the time limit for class 11 and other limited classes that could use it.
 

JDDurfey

Well-Known Member
I know that one of the bragging points of the 11 guys is that if they do manage to finish, they ran the same course as everyone else. But why not give them a couple of routes for them only that would bypass some of the nasty silt and nearly impassable sections for them.

I think it is awesome to see these under powered cars go through places you would never dream of driving your street truck, even if it is a 4x4. I followed the 1000 this last year from my computer in Texas, and I was cheering for the Class 11 guys the whole race and followed the few that made it all the way to the finish. Those guys have heart!
 

BoscoKID

Well-Known Member
Score came to those that race the Baja on a regular basis, and we also talked with some that don't race with score and we talked with different engine and chasis biilders, and some of the guys were also local Mexican racers as well. Many participate in C11C as well. We are not asking for tbese changes, Score is going to make them with or without our help.
We addressed the obvious which is,,,"more time", and why do TT's and 1's have such a great time advantage over every one else. Give 11's just a fraction of that time to take care of repairs, getting stuck, and the kind of stuff that only happens in Baja, but we were told, "no, no,,,and no" not nessacLy in that order.
In turn we also explained that Speed is not an issue, 11's have all the speed we need. We don't need bigger engines, closeed ratio gearing, or the option to run a type two.
We are talking about mainly rules that apply to the front end, and even still we're trying to stay away from the "aftermarket" upgrades that will in rease the budget that could be required to build a 11 using the provided options.
If anyone wants to see what 11's go through, come on down. This is a whole different ballgame. We just pre-ran the SF 250,,,and it's ugly, just frigging ugly. The whoops that never stop, and dry beds that suck you in.
There was a time when class 11 was class 11, and they have evolved and i bet the class 11 you have today is not the class 11 your Grandpa drove.
Looking forward to discussing thus further,,,but RM152-250 is waiting for us, gunna be a long say of Pre-running
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Open up the pavement sections for class 11s in Baja with no speed limit and that will help a lot. Going 90 over 100 miles instead of 60 will save you over 30 minutes alone. Double that much pavement as it seems to be going and you get the picture. As someone who has done the peninsula run in an 11 that finished within the time limit, pavement was a huge advantage for us. We were catching and passing close geared limited cars on every piece of pavement we ran. As far as the time limit, simply make the average 25mph and hold to it and the 11 cars should be good.
 

BoscoKID

Well-Known Member
Open up the pavement sections for class 11s in Baja with no speed limit and that will help a lot. .
Good Point! Not sure if the Speed limit will happen as I think the Camino Federals would just love to be waiting for us. I did receive and email and phone call from the Score Official that puts the course together, and they are willing to work with us on Alt. routes, and HWY cuts. Honestly,,,I hate the HWY stuff. I don't even like cutting sections of the course out, but if we're not getting more time, we gotta make it up in other ways. Not much to be done with the San Felipe 250 course,,,it's just awful all around. Hopefully we'll be able to work with Score on the up coming Baja 500 with alt. routes in the course,,,but not too much HWY stuff. Man,,,the run from Puertocitos to Coco's will soon be all Pavement,,,
 

BoscoKID

Well-Known Member
Add some extra time at the 500 & 1000 and leave the cars alone
We're pretty much pounding sand on the time issue. Just is not going to happen. Such an odd deal. I even had sat down and did the math to compare what time we have to deal with issues in comparison to the TT's and 1's. I do think there should be a bracketing of time blocks for a group of classes, and they need to have the same time pressures as us. But, for those putting on these races,,,there is the business side of it. Extra time, yea, it would be an easy solution, but it ain't gunna happen. How hard is it to have someone sitting on chair, with a watch, pad of paper, camera... You roll in at 4:00 am, dude writes down the time, takes a photo that has the date and time, he hands you a finisher's medal, Yawns,,,and tells ya what time the awards ceremony is,,,Oh yea, and a hand shake.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
SCORE's rules have already been opened up in the rulebook, but not to what has been proposed. F
After looking them over on the SCORE website it looks like you can add a brace in-between the front beam and it looks like any manufacture internals in the transmission as long as stock gearing is maintained. People are already running Weddle internals so this isn't a big deal. A beam brace isn't a huge deal and just strengthens the front end enough and is a cheap addition.

The only other rule change I can possibly see is chromoly tie rods in the stock length. The stock ones are weak, this is an easy one time fix, and it increases the reliability and durability of the car. I'm sure Ill receive some heat on that idea.
 

MARXICO

Well-Known Member
The ty rod change does not work your advantage. You need a week link to protect your steering box and spindles you don’t want impact force travel into components difficult to replace on the race course it is easier to change a ty rod than steering box or spindle.


Sometimes newer isn’t better, it’s only newer
 
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BoscoKID

Well-Known Member
People are already running Weddle internals so this isn't a big deal. A beam brace isn't a huge deal and just strengthens the front end enough and is a cheap addition.
Wait,,, people are already running Weddle Gears? This is why this whole thing is so funny. So someone explain to me why you can run Weddle internals but not have Disc Brakes? Shouldn't that be a STOCK Type One? I know I'm not running Weddle Internals,,,
 

Diz Carey

Member
Keep 11, 11. The whole point of a cheap but historic class is just that. Once you lose the lineage its just not 11, be that through changing the car or re routing the course. Score has to run as a business I get that, but between cancelling races people have been planning on because local government can't afford to give you the wedge and changing class rules its making it look like its only interest is business. Score you are the guardians of many peoples passion, and of a history that is unique in sport, do the right thing for once. Just sit in that chair a little longer and wait for the damm 11's to finish. Who knows if you pull some of your PR people away from just covering Trophy Trucks you might even see there is some human interest and good PR to be had in the bikes and other classes.
 

johndjmix

Well-Known Member
Extend time limits. It's really a bummer to go through all the prep and work and actually finish just to find you missed the time limit.

Our team (ATV) came close to not making the limit by 15 mins. We just made it in. After all we went through it would have really sucked to not make it due to a time limit.

Is there a good reason why time limits can't be extended?

--John


Dunarri LLC
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
 

BoscoKID

Well-Known Member
Cost. Score is just not talking about having someone to record times, that's what I was thinking. How hard is it to have some kid waiting for you with a stop watch, paper to record your time, a camera to digitally confirm your finish, and a finisher's medal But,,,they have insurance cost for the amount of time the course is officially open, emergency personnel, helicopters on stand by... Communications... The cost is way more than we could dish out,,,already tough to do. There working on something now, that would give us more time, but it's not a positive thing,,,yet. You have 20+ trophy trucks,,,and 5-6 11's,,, where would you put all of your attention to? The TT's and Class 1's are the show case, and there are lots more of them than us.

Keeping 11, and 11. Tell me that 11's have not evolved. Tell me the 11 you have today is the same 11 that was racing 20 years ago. Who decided what can change on them over the years? We are at the tail end of TT's, Class 1's that have evolved, they are bigger, and more powerful and the course is showing it as well. I just need someone to say "Yes,,,the class 11 that is being raced today,,,,is just like the class 11 that was being raced 20 years ago". The course might be the same route,,,but it's not the same course as far as the condition they are in. We don't have graders grooming the course for us.
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
I can guaranty you there are some class 11s that are raced today as those raced 20 years ago. Just about all the pre-IRS cars are pretty much the way they were back then. And the pre-IRS cars seemed to finish in time back then. Maybe that is part of the issue. I have been questioning the wisdom of the IRS long travel type 1 IRS trans for peninsula runs for a while now. I know from first hand experience that a type 1 swinger has finished and won more than once in peninsula runs.
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
Swing axle is extremely capable of finishing a Baja race and for decades has been the car of choice for long Baja races I have done it in one several times, I will spell it out, the ones racing Baja today are not.. pre paired for the challenge. Face it Record and Code run there races on the same exact roads trails silt beds you name it that Score has there races on, class 11 racers finish all the time in these races driving the wheels off there cars yet the ones racing Score are timing out before the 100 mile mark crawling along on a 19mph average and then demanding more time. It is pathetic.it just is not going to cut it. Most do the `1000 as there once a year race have cars that are not ready for the challenge nor are the drivers. I and many others have won and finished the Baja 1000 in the time limit, to drastically change class 11 is flat wrong, the changes they want is a 51600 car with a semi full body with out power steering.. The same racers can do all these things and the results will be the same but class 11 will be gone and only a memory in Score. The ridicules amount it cost to enter a class 11 in Score keeps teams capable of finishing these races away, there are hundreds of class 11 cars in the host city of the Baja 500 and 1000 and maybe 1 car enters maybe 2 from Ensanada and they are not the ones I would bet on for a finish. Maybe days later but not in the time limit.. I can think of many great class 11 racers from Ensanada that could do it but they cant afford to do it so the same teams that fail year after year or first year racers is all that show up and they are the ones that have Rodgers ear for all these ridicules rule changes. I race Snore where the rules will stay the same with good car counts and great racing. This is where I will hear I need to prove I can do it, got news for you I have done it in a real Score class 11 1967 sedan. That is all the proof you need, and so have many other well prepared class 11 racers. Changing and destroying this class because you people cant figure it out is wrong
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
I agree Dave. The car that I was involved with was one of those '67s you talk about. In fact, it was one of your original builds. And it finished with plenty of time on the clock on a peninsula run. Can't say it wasn't some luck involved as we only had about 2 hours total down time and stuck time for the whole race, but sometimes that is what it takes. And it wasn't a fluke. That team and that car won SCORE championships and plenty of races.
 

tapeworm

Well-Known Member
The rules have been updated.

Front shock tower may be gusseted with a bar running from tower to tower that extends no more than 2 inches above the shock towers.

Rack and pinion steering is now legal but stock tie rods, ends, and everything else has to be used.

Steering shaft can be modified.

Brakes are open. Any manufacturer master cylinder and disc brakes on all 4 are legal.

No more rear facing lights on the roof. Light housings and wings are no longer legal up there.

Transmission is wide open as long as it is type 1 4 speed with reverse and no more than 2% different ratio than stock. Open ratio and Weddle internals now legal.

All pedals are now open.

No more rule about tube bumpers being taller than stock bumpers.

Front fenders can be cut all the way up to the pan.

That's all I could find.

Anyone interested in an 11 car? I'll make you a great deal on mine. It will have a fresh prep and only need another $10,000 in mods to be competitive in SCORES class 11 super modified.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
The rules have been updated.

Front shock tower may be gusseted with a bar running from tower to tower that extends no more than 2 inches above the shock towers.

Rack and pinion steering is now legal but stock tie rods, ends, and everything else has to be used.

Steering shaft can be modified.

Brakes are open. Any manufacturer master cylinder and disc brakes on all 4 are legal.

No more rear facing lights on the roof. Light housings and wings are no longer legal up there.

Transmission is wide open as long as it is type 1 4 speed with reverse and no more than 2% different ratio than stock. Open ratio and Weddle internals now legal.

All pedals are now open.

No more rule about tube bumpers being taller than stock bumpers.

Front fenders can be cut all the way up to the pan.

That's all I could find.

Anyone interested in an 11 car? I'll make you a great deal on mine. It will have a fresh prep and only need another $10,000 in mods to be competitive in SCORES class 11 super modified.

This is a sad day for the sport of off road racing! The one pure class that for the most part has been untouched is now being destroyed. I get small changes to a class due to safety or as parts might no longer be available, or if a class was dying. But this a huge overhaul to a class that did not need it. I could see the beam gusset as that does not effect the appearance, add performance and has little cost, but could save some costs. But the brake rules are not necessary. And rack & pinion? How do you use stock tie rods & ends on a rack??


I hope class 11 teams keep their cars as is and race other series besides Score. I also hope other series don't feel the pressure to follow Score and change their rules.
 
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