Should light buggies start mixed with heavy metal

Should Light buggies start mixed with Full size heavy metal TT. TTspec, and Class 1


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MTPyle

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Haha

Obviously I am too defensive on here. I need to chill.

I have to go back and look at what I saw. There was something in the race info and then when they published the starting order and qualifying results it was mixed based on time. I even asked the tech guys and they also said the start was based on qualifying time. Which it was noted at the time that this was not normal.

So when we went to stage and it was different than the starting order list we were confused.

It seemed from my perspective that they considered doing it a new way but bailed at the last minute.

Mike
 

9rocky

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Haha

Obviously I am too defensive on here. I need to chill.

I have to go back and look at what I saw. There was something in the race info and then when they published the starting order and qualifying results it was mixed based on time. I even asked the tech guys and they also said the start was based on qualifying time. Which it was noted at the time that this was not normal.

So when we went to stage and it was different than the starting order list we were confused.

It seemed from my perspective that they considered doing it a new way but bailed at the last minute.

Mike

We race SCORE a lot. Has never happened, has never been talked about, was never in the racer brief, ever.

Not saying it will not happen in the future, but...
 
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MTPyle

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I just looked at the racer packet and you are right it says qualifying order then in class. So not sure what I read that made me think that. It might have just been seeing the qualifying order list that also made me think that.

either way I was wrong and they did not start based on qualifying order. This list attached for sure gave the impression they might. Why show classes mixed and create the confusion for idols like me? haha

Would have been cleaner to post the staging order.

Mike
 

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Robin Hood

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Dang dude. You are so arrogant. Like Fault would matter with two race vehicles torn up and possible injuries.

You do know that it's a race, right? Everyone is going as fast as they can and on the edge. Thats racing and if you are not on the edge you are not racing. To purposely put moving obstacles like a slow Class 1 at the start for all the guys to work around is irresponsible. Sorry but I do blame the org for adding that risk to all.

Yes if the over taking vehicle hits the vehicles they are overtaking then yes its their fault in some cases. If the vehicle that is being over taken makes a sudden move into the main line its their fault. If that Class 1 would have come out into the main line without looking and we ran into them it would be their fault. No different than pulling out in front of someone on the road. Its the merging traffics responsibility to make sure its clear. Actually it looks like that Class 1 did the right thing and saw us coming and stopped. But the org put them in a position to do that 20 times in the first 20 miles. Looks like they got good at it.

Our Co driver mirror got broke early in the race. What if we could not see someone and moved out in front of them? it almost happened. I guess we could all come here later and talk about who's "Fault" it is.

But again why put slower vehicles mixed in with faster vehicles at the start off a off-road race? Maybe so guys like you can argue who's fault it was after a collision?

Mike

If your driver did not check up in both of those instances and hit the vehicle it would be his/her fault....period. There needs to be accountability when passing, nerfing, or running into people. If you take the risk then accept the consequences. If a racer takes out another vehicle, then they did not have control of their race car and should be DQ'd. If it happens more than once then they should be banned.
 

MTPyle

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If your driver did not check up in both of those instances and hit the vehicle it would be his/her fault....period. There needs to be accountability when passing, nerfing, or running into people. If you take the risk then accept the consequences. If a racer takes out another vehicle, then they did not have control of their race car and should be DQ'd. If it happens more than once then they should be banned.

In general I agree with you. But in that video you can see that checking up would not have helped. If the C1 came into the main line there would be nothing our driver could do. goto 20:44 and tell me if you could have known the course was coming together and checked up if the C1 came out on the main line?

its like Nascar putting a rabbit on the race course and telling the drivers they better not hit the rabbit. The Rabbit would for sure get killed. would it be the driver that hit the rabbits fault or Nascars for putting the rabbit on the course in the first place? I have killed many rabbits in the desert at night, I have nothing against rabbits and really do not want to kill them. But when they jump out in front of me doing 80mph they are going to die. I am not a Rabbit killer, the rabbits commit suicide by me. Not my fault. LOL

Mike
 
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Total Loss

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In general I agree with you. But in that video you can see that checking up would not have helped. If the C1 came into the main line there would be nothing our driver could do. goto 20:44 and tell me if you could have known the course was coming together and checked up if the C1 came out on the main line?

its like Nascar putting a rabbit on the race course and telling the drivers they better not hit the rabbit. The Rabbit would for sure get killed. would it be the driver that hit the rabbits fault or Nascars for putting the rabbit on the course in the first place? I have killed many rabbits in the desert at night, I have nothing against rabbits and really do not want to kill them. But when they jump out in front of me doing 80mph they are going to die. I am not a Rabbit killer, the rabbits commit suicide by me. Not my fault. LOL

Mike
I'm calling PETA...lol.
 
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masleca

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Wasn’t being a dick. It’s my dog after all.
It’s like calling a Spaniard a Mexican.
Hey Ethan,
Didn't take it like that at all.
Great Looking Dog and I'd never heard of that breed.
Your response caused me to look them up and learn something. Thank you

Hope to run into you at B500 (not on the Course),,,,,,,,,,,cause you're a lighter vehicle 🤣
FYI...we met at the Old Mill last year in San Quintin (you were with your brother & grandfather & Gary J)
 

MTPyle

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Curtis fixed it so you guys can change your vote on the poll. I few reached out and said they picked the wrong one.

And I know my amazing Rabbit analogy changed a bunch of minds. Haha

Mike
 

dan200

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Curtis fixed it so you guys can change your vote on the poll. I few reached out and said they picked the wrong one.

And I know my amazing Rabbit analogy changed a bunch of minds. Haha

Mike
I don't wanna sound critical and I know you take a lot of shizz on this forum BUT I gotta say that it really bothers me that you have completely glossed over the coconut thing.

In July 1973, a two-year-old girl was killed and her aunt injured during a family picnic at Kapiolani Beach Center near Diamond Head, Hawaii, when a cluster of 57 coconuts weighing more than 45 kg (100 lb) fell from a tree.

Are we just supposed to ignore this senseless tragedy? This is a 2 year old girl we are talking about (who actually died). Maybe if she was sponsored by Red Bull it would matter?
 

dan200

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MTPyle

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Dan,

Do you get to keep posting on this thread without voting? which way do you vote?

I really dont know what to say about the coconut incident. Haha

Yeah that Red bull plane thing was pretty crazy. they almost pulled it off.

Mike
 

E.Hagle

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Hey Ethan,
Didn't take it like that at all.
Great Looking Dog and I'd never heard of that breed.
Your response caused me to look them up and learn something. Thank you

Hope to run into you at B500 (not on the Course),,,,,,,,,,,cause you're a lighter vehicle 🤣
FYI...we met at the Old Mill last year in San Quintin (you were with your brother & grandfather & Gary J)
Were you with the Parkhouse team?
I could ramble all day about my god damned dog.
Hope to see you guys again as well. Grandpa and Gary will both be there. Gary shadow lurks on here so he’ll be honored to be mentioned.

If my girlfriend comes down on Thursday with a chase truck she’s bringing down the dog for tech
 

Frye Racing

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I'll jump in here. I am the race director for VORRA. For those that don't know, I have been a volunteer/ racer since I was 5 and now 40. My wife Laura and I took over VORRA from Dave Cole at the end of 2018.
This year is our first year of using qualifying. While I agree that starting 15 6100's behind 1 class 10 car is probably not the best, for VORRA's case it's a little different. I consider us (VORRA) the AAA of off road racing. We are no means comparing apples to apples with organizations from down south. From time to time we get A Cameron Steele, or a Raul Gomez with his TT or U4., but for the most part, we have a mixture of fast, slower, and new guys. All of our courses are loops, so at some point the fast guys will catch the slower guys. Up until our last race at Hawthorne, we hold 2 separate races a day, UTV's, class 9, 11 in the morning, All larger vehicles in the afternoon into the evening, Mixing the race order up each race.
For us, we have a class called Group T. This combines, Class 8, 7200 and 1450. Most of the time, Chris German is the usually the fastest, but when we would hold a draw,, he may start 10-20 vehicles back. We have several fast guys that would draw further back in Group T making it tough and down right unsafe at times to pass several slower vehicles. With that said, we also would have much faster class 10 guys having to pass slower Group T trucks.
So far, our qualifying loops have been portions, if not all of the actual race course being used the next day. And so far I am pleased with the results. We have yet (fingers crossed) to have any major rough driving instances.
To make it even more interesting, at our last race, we had 57 total entries, on a 55 mile lap, we combined both races and held just one. We had one concern of a "TT' driving into a back of a UTV, but that never really panned out. Other than that, we had a awesome battle between, Steve and Travis Bradford in their class 10 and Alex Baker in his Can Am Pro Turbo. Baker took the OA, and yes I know it's a smaller field, but even for VORRA this was the first time a UTV took an OA.
Finally, and I apologize for rambling, but my personal opinion is, if a smaller vehicle wants to take the chance of qualifying in front of the bigger dawgs, they need to know and take the responsibility of watching their mirrors and being prepared for a tap as needed.
 
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Honda48X

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What is the actual weight of these vehicles? I see the Polaris R is around 2700 lbs and the fully loaded Mason 6100 is 5000 lbs. I believe these Race Polaris’s have a purpose built rear cage to handle a pretty good nerf.

08720B7F-4C4E-44D5-9163-77E8ACC1BD1F.png
 

Frye Racing

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BJ’s response is spot on, which only makes sense as he speaks from vast experience and runs a great organization. They have the best race courses.

I would guess he constantly analyzes the data and recognizes cars change and evolve as well as how they perform at certain races. And that every racer is his customer, not just the fast ones.

I agree if lighter cars are ok with the risk why not let them start up front based on qualifying. Others in the class can chose not to qualify and start in the normal spot. That is if qualifying is available at said race.

Though the real issue is sportsmanship and respecting others peoples cars. Class 6100 for expample has a ton of new racers that have never raced in other classes and don’t understand the physics of the weight difference or the fragility of a rear engine car. Though training at drivers meetings could go a long way to help educate these racers.

If you care about growing the sport we need to respect every racer and every class.

On the flip side with the evolution of the 6100 truck why are they still starting behind the old class 1 cars in many instances? If you look at the data they as a class are faster and many have to drive through the class 1 cars. Doesn’t seem safe. I believe SCORE is making the change, which only seems fair to the class 6100 racers. If they had clean air they could be even faster.

Just some thoughts.
 

dan200

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Dan,

Do you get to keep posting on this thread without voting? which way do you vote?

I really dont know what to say about the coconut incident. Haha

Yeah that Red bull plane thing was pretty crazy. they almost pulled it off.

Mike

Honestly I am undecided, kinda. Sorta? I’m have had friends get hurt BAD racing and as a board member of fast aid I have had to deal directly with the people and families who have had to deal with these injuries. There are some gnarly stories in there. I’ve been personally attached to a bunch of them. That stuff gets In your head.

And I see the flip side. The sport is dangerous but people know that when they sign up. I also think that there is a lot that makes sense in the “these guys know what they are getting into” especially Guthrie. Dude is a pro wheeler.

I am bothered that it puts apprehension in a heavy truck guy that has to race in the dust and worry that they can really hurt a light rig like these. They are built tougher but it’s like if a heavyweight fighter got in the ring with a feather weight. They are both tough but one just punches harder.

The chance of contact that’s gonna hurt the light guy actually happening is probably low but it’s there.

But the rules allow for them to enter and I’m not a fan of rule changes especially in unlimited. And I think that a light vehicle shouldn’t be outlawed in unlimited. Maybe a minimum weight makes sense but I don’t wanna pick the weight.

I also see that rhis is probably a one and done deal based on the course and entry list kinda favoring these UTVS so…. Might not have to worry about this being a thing.

Maybe a super cage might help? Is that a thing?

And I don’t race unlimited but I crew for that class and 6100 and I don’t want my drivers to have to do extra worrying about hurting someone. We come to win/not just finish and in that world ya gotta push at 110 % and it would suck to have that kinda thing in my drivers head. They play rough. Winners have to. My squad hustles to mitigate anything that takes our drivers focus away from driving. I don’t want them to have that distraction.

If I was race director I would be conflicted as hell. This could be a mess if it went wrong. But it’s within the rules so what can I do?

In the end I would probably reach for
A Consensus among the actual drivers who are burdened by this and I expect they would not want a golf kart stacked in front of them off the start. (I haven’t looked at the vote results here but I bet people with skin in the game are only a few of the voters). Now, if I had a bad day and got passed by a UTV in a TT WELL, that’s on me for sucking. I would be sensitive to the fact they earned their spot while on the course and charge less hard. But at that point I am
A car on a race track. I am not racing anymore. I’m Too far back to
Push to the point I’m being dangerous to
Me, my equipment and my fellow
Racers. If we’re out of the game and the ability to win is long gone I’ll cruise and not get crazy. But not everyone feels that way. Dudes very often hit the idiot switch and try to make up
Time even when winning is a hopeless pursuit. I don’t get it but it is a real thing. Winning stuff messes with your head. It’s a needle in your arm. It’s all you seek. Second is lame. Honestly if our day has gone bad I lose interest. I get grumpy.

I guess in reality I don’t want the fear of punting a golf kart to be a thing that will make our truck go slower. So I guess I would be pissed if they got to start in front of me. But Obviously we can hurt any vehicle we catch so that’s another conflict. I mean, they put themselves there knowing full and well the danger. But I would feel awful if I hurt someone that way.

Would I enter a UTV in class one? Nope. I’d stay in my lane and do my best to get up in the mix but I’d let the big kids go first. It’s not a safe play.

In this case the drivers are great. They know how to race and survive. But there’s sucky dudes and I don’t want them trying this. It’s only a matter of time before this goes bad and it’s difficult to figure out who to blame in the event of an accident.

So- I’m against it but I’m only involved in a support position so it ain’t my call.

In baja this would be a horrible idea. At SS300 it’s way less treacherous.

Better sportsmanship on both sides would help this but that’s not something that there is enough of without this situation.

I tried a donut today with coconut on it. I only ate half of it. But I ate two others that had no coconut and I liked those better.
 

MTPyle

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Haha thanks Dan. Best response yet.

It’s for sure a complicated topic. And you are right that not many that are voting have been in a 6k lb truck in the dust doing 100mph.

Thanks again.

I actually like coconut in pretty much any form. Just the thought of a donut with coconut has me excited. I guess it’s no mystery why I am overweight.

Mike
 

mrmatt

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Dan sums it up pretty well for me....I am conflicted on this topic....I know for ME what my choice is if presented the option but different courses and different situations could sway my opinion.
" The sportsmanship on both sides" statement is valid. I have seen both ends of the spectrum on this. And I believe if both sides are respectful of each others situation, it goes a long way to mitigating issues. However, I definitely can understand the safety side of this debate. I personally race 1600 and do not have a desire to be plowed into by a 5000lb vehicle weather on purpose or on accident.
I have on, accident, gotten into to back of 3500 lb+ truck in blinding dust at a pretty low speed and I don't think they even knew but I can tell you I sure felt it and so did my front bumber,, dont like the thought of the roles reversed

Edit: and for the record.....coconut is awful
 

10 shot

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I think it is more of what could possibly happen and why risk it when there is a perfectly good class for the unlimited trophy utv. Your leaving a class with 20 + entries to go to a class 1 with 3 entries to try and see if you can overall . Is class 1 that desirable ? Is it just to say hey I won class 1 with my utv? Or is it better to say I won utv trophy against 25 other guys. If it was class 10 I guarantee the class 10 guys would go for the competition in class 10 against 25 other guys and not go to class 1 to I guess prove something.
 
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