Should light buggies start mixed with heavy metal

Should Light buggies start mixed with Full size heavy metal TT. TTspec, and Class 1


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JerryB

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We need events you must qualify for where everyone gets a 2 minute gap.

If SCORE/BITD had the ability to run an sportsman circuit and a pro circuit we might be able have less dust, more enjoyable as well as safer racing.
I'm not for a separate course. Don't get me wrong it worked when score has done it to separate the bikes and some of the sportsman classes, but.... as a long term solution the best scenario is separate events. I know this raises all types of issues with permitting and costs but it's the best fix there is. Secondarily, longer splits at the start; 2 minutes or more would be awesome. But again this creates additional problems for the org and classes finishing in the middle of tge night, which some are opposed to.
 

E.Hagle

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If you had 100 vehicles starting at 2 minutes between each other with TT off the line at 6:30 or 7 everyone would be fine other than the Baja 1000
 
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E.Hagle

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I’m completely naive as to what it takes to hold an off-road race although I’d love to learn. I have aspirations to one day contribute to this sport myself.
 

Bro_Gill

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Hey Mike, as a guy who had his truck wrecked in the dust by a faster class car coming though blinding dust, you need to understand you are coming off as a pompous @$$. Drivers going for the win taking out other class cars(slower) sucks to no end, especially when they just toss it off as a racing event while the slower class car racing within their class has to eat it. But that's the way it's been ever since the 'premier' class was given the special status of racing in their own event on a separate day and couldn't make it pay off. Every driver who is passing another driver in their own class or passing any other class has the responsibility to pass safely, regardless of dust. So again, if you want to penalize lighter vehicles by relegating them down the starting food chain, then as soon as the lighter vehicles start passing the heavy ones, they should end their race and not be a threat of safety to the lighter vehicles down the course. I can live with that, can you?
 

MTPyle

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Hey Mike, as a guy who had his truck wrecked in the dust by a faster class car coming though blinding dust, you need to understand you are coming off as a pompous @$$. Drivers going for the win taking out other class cars(slower) sucks to no end, especially when they just toss it off as a racing event while the slower class car racing within their class has to eat it. But that's the way it's been ever since the 'premier' class was given the special status of racing in their own event on a separate day and couldn't make it pay off. Every driver who is passing another driver in their own class or passing any other class has the responsibility to pass safely, regardless of dust. So again, if you want to penalize lighter vehicles by relegating them down the starting food chain, then as soon as the lighter vehicles start passing the heavy ones, they should end their race and not be a threat of safety to the lighter vehicles down the course. I can live with that, can you?

Sorry I am coming off as an A$$ to you. I don’t really think about how I am coming off as much as sharing my open opinion and experiences.

I never said we can eliminate all risk. Clearly once the racers get shuffled there are lots of mixing. But I do believe you can reduce the risk at the start.

Not sure what that’s offending so many. Other than the little guy syndrome which I mentioned before. It’s a real thing and seems to have made its way into off-road, maybe it was always there.

This subject has become like the let’s follow the rules subject. Why either of these topics are offensive is beyond me.

I am not even the one making the rules. Just thought is was a responsible conversation to have. God forbid we converse and share ideas and perspectives. Let’s get back to being macho.

F those light buggies, they want to start in front of me I will crush them. In a deep monster voice. Haha that better?

Mike
 

Total Loss

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Haha I did my best.

Crazy how close it is. Super surprised.

That’s what’s great about a good clean vote that can’t be messed with. We should try that to pick our next President. LOL

Mike
Good luck here...a pile of rocks would win in a landslide over the current disaster.

Put me down for a pile of rocks.
 

Robin Hood

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Its simple...take away the big tires, gps and stop running thru the dust like an idiot, before someone gets killed. The entitled elite that think they are offroad racing, are the minority in the sport. The sport doesn't need to grow, it needs to go back to its roots.

BTW...litlle guys fight with way more heart then big fat guys;)
 
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MTPyle

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Its simple...take away the big tires, gps and stop running thru the dust like an idiot, before someone gets killed. The entitled elite that think they are offroad racing, are the minority in the sport. The sport doesn't need to grow, it needs to go back to its roots.

BTW...litlle guys fight with way more heart then big fat guys;)

😂 No kidding. Trust me I know first hand about the little guys. When I was growing up my dad always said it’s the little ones you have to worry about, man was he right.

And you are also right about how the gps has changed the game. I can’t believe what you have to do to be fast. I think that cat is out of the bag though and don’t see it changing. No matter what you do guys will risk it all to win.

Mike
 

jon coleman

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Its simple...take away the big tires, gps and stop running thru the dust like an idiot, before someone gets killed. The entitled elite that think they are offroad racing, are the minority in the sport. The sport doesn't need to grow, it needs to go back to its roots.

BTW...litlle guys fight with way more heart then big fat guys;)
really known dusty races should be at night only, no gps& no crying, i remember Henderson 300 last race of the year, waiting to start, top tt& cls1s were coming through start finish and 1700 hasnt even left yet, wtf, this will be an interesting first20-40 miles, sooo, when i left start line, about half the 1700 started in front, i just cruzed along at an ok pace waiting for the leaders to ' show up', boy did they, then i wicked it up to see how bad they mixed up My compitition, it was fun, mixing up classes is a fact in certain loop racing events, and dust is kicked up by SoMtHiNg in front of you, think about it
 

dan200

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LOL- Mike I have watched you brag about how and what you don't know while fantastically overthinking things. I have watched you try and learn all you can on this forum. You are painfully honest and that's commendable AF.

I cannot comprehend why one would call you pompous a$$.

And then I remembered who just called you that and giggled out loud at the irony.

There was a time before you were around when RG and Norman and Pfluger and all kinds of big shots with TTs used to post here. But they were chased off by pompous A$$ people. Now people complain they they don't participate here anymore. I cite post 144 as an example as to why.

I read up on this a little bit. I turns out there is a mental disorder that is prevalent in males who have high levels of psychopathy and are usually sadists that take pleasure from humiliation, fear, or some other form of mental harm to a person. Unfavorable experiences in childhood are one cause but it can also be learned. But for real. Its a mental disorder. So ya can't let it bother you in that same way ya can't get mad at a blind person for not being able to see. They cant help it. They call it Bro-Gill-Actica.

bill nye GIF


I hope everyone has a great Sunday. I'm excited for the 500. Coconut sucks.
 

10 shot

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Why do.ppl think you can read a GPS and blast blindly through the dust?? 🤣 it's not like a Tesla guys . Blasting through the dust as fast as possible has more to do with watching the edge's of the course or locking on to your competitions yellow light when you get close enough. Taking chances trying to pass is what it's all about or we all just follow each other around. You have no idea what that is in front of you in that situation till your on there bumper. The best way to move them without putting your car in danger of clipping a rock is to nurf them and making them pull over. At times trying to nurf you end up slamming them because they check up. Most guys are not out there trying to wreck cars but it does happen. If your a small light car blasting by the heavy trucks I don't see the danger like i do a small lightweight car getting a good start position because its on a short tight qualifying course then getting run over on the race course. If they let it happen in other races then we will see how long it takes till there is a disaster. I do not think snore thought it was going to be a issue when they had there course getting close going in two different directions till it was dusty in the race and one car blasted down the wrong side of the race course causing a head on and multiple car pile up and injuries. Did they ever think that was going to happen???? Absolutely not. Putting racers in even more dangerous situations is not what we are supposed to be doing even though they might not think so.
 

Robin Hood

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Why do.ppl think you can read a GPS and blast blindly through the dust?? 🤣 it's not like a Tesla guys . Blasting through the dust as fast as possible has more to do with watching the edge's of the course or locking on to your competitions yellow light when you get close enough. Taking chances trying to pass is what it's all about or we all just follow each other around. You have no idea what that is in front of you in that situation till your on there bumper. The best way to move them without putting your car in danger of clipping a rock is to nurf them and making them pull over. At times trying to nurf you end up slamming them because they check up. Most guys are not out there trying to wreck cars but it does happen. If your a small light car blasting by the heavy trucks I don't see the danger like i do a small lightweight car getting a good start position because its on a short tight qualifying course then getting run over on the race course. If they let it happen in other races then we will see how long it takes till there is a disaster. I do not think snore thought it was going to be a issue when they had there course getting close going in two different directions till it was dusty in the race and one car blasted down the wrong side of the race course causing a head on and multiple car pile up and injuries. Did they ever think that was going to happen???? Absolutely not. Putting racers in even more dangerous situations is not what we are supposed to be doing even though they might not think so.

You don't think the GPS offers any assistance in the dust...Really? Does anyone else agree that the GPS doesn't assist/help in the dust? Taking the chances to run thru dust without pre-running and GPS brings a whole different level of risk to the game that has to be balanced with..."to be first, one must first finish". Guaranteed if we didn't have GPS the speeds would drop across the board.

The tire debate is another thing. At times it is the weight differance that is argued and others it is the speed differance. If the tire size hadn't got out of hand then the vehical speeds and weights would be much closer together.

Regarding passing...It is much easier for a truck to pass a buggy then for a buggy to pass a truck. Trucks kick up a much larger plum of dust, it is more difficult to line up and hit their rear bumper, and most don't have good visibility to see a smaller vehicle either behind them or coming around them. All of this puts the smaller vehicle at a disadvantage and at a greater risk.

None of this applies to silt beds. They create their own risks and sets of variables that need to be addressed by the orgs for the safety of all participants...big and small.
 

10 shot

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You don't think the GPS offers any assistance in the dust...Really? Does anyone else agree that the GPS doesn't assist/help in the dust? Taking the chances to run thru dust without pre-running and GPS brings a whole different level of risk to the game that has to be balanced with..."to be first, one must first finish". Guaranteed if we didn't have GPS the speeds would drop across the board.

The tire debate is another thing. At times it is the weight differance that is argued and others it is the speed differance. If the tire size hadn't got out of hand then the vehical speeds and weights would be much closer together.

Regarding passing...It is much easier for a truck to pass a buggy then for a buggy to pass a truck. Trucks kick up a much larger plum of dust, it is more difficult to line up and hit their rear bumper, and most don't have good visibility to see a smaller vehicle either behind them or coming around them. All of this puts the smaller vehicle at a disadvantage and at a greater risk.

None of this applies to silt beds. They create their own risks and sets of variables that need to be addressed by the orgs for the safety of all participants...big and small.
How many wins do you have??
 

tapeworm

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LOL- Mike I have watched you brag about how and what you don't know while fantastically overthinking things. I have watched you try and learn all you can on this forum. You are painfully honest and that's commendable AF.

I cannot comprehend why one would call you pompous a$$.

And then I remembered who just called you that and giggled out loud at the irony.

There was a time before you were around when RG and Norman and Pfluger and all kinds of big shots with TTs used to post here. But they were chased off by pompous A$$ people. Now people complain they they don't participate here anymore. I cite post 144 as an example as to why.

I read up on this a little bit. I turns out there is a mental disorder that is prevalent in males who have high levels of psychopathy and are usually sadists that take pleasure from humiliation, fear, or some other form of mental harm to a person. Unfavorable experiences in childhood are one cause but it can also be learned. But for real. Its a mental disorder. So ya can't let it bother you in that same way ya can't get mad at a blind person for not being able to see. They cant help it. They call it Bro-Gill-Actica.

bill nye GIF


I hope everyone has a great Sunday. I'm excited for the 500. Coconut sucks.
Pot meet kettle….

It’s always funny watching someone call someone else out by exhibiting the exact same behavior. Hypocrisy and elitism at its finest executed like a true American.

Only difference is one person in this argument isn’t representing a company with potential negative financial consequences
 
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10 shot

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You don't think the GPS offers any assistance in the dust...Really? Does anyone else agree that the GPS doesn't assist/help in the dust? Taking the chances to run thru dust without pre-running and GPS brings a whole different level of risk to the game that has to be balanced with..."to be first, one must first finish". Guaranteed if we didn't have GPS the speeds would drop across the board.

The tire debate is another thing. At times it is the weight differance that is argued and others it is the speed differance. If the tire size hadn't got out of hand then the vehical speeds and weights would be much closer together.

Regarding passing...It is much easier for a truck to pass a buggy then for a buggy to pass a truck. Trucks kick up a much larger plum of dust, it is more difficult to line up and hit their rear bumper, and most don't have good visibility to see a smaller vehicle either behind them or coming around them. All of this puts the smaller vehicle at a disadvantage and at a greater risk.

None of this applies to silt beds. They create their own risks and sets of variables that need to be addressed by the orgs for the safety of all participants...big and small.
GPS helps if you have a co driver giving you notes on turns coming up. GPS is also not that accurate enough to tell you everything. Guys that are good punching through the dust are not driving off the gps. With there eyes closed. There are ways to do it and the GPS is one of the tools to help . So take away the GPS and there still will be ppl going fast in the dust that's how you pass ppl🤣
 

dan200

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Pot meet kettle….

It’s always funny watching someone call someone else out by exhibiting the exact same behavior. Hypocrisy and elitism at its finest executed like a true American.

Only difference is one person in this argument isn’t representing a company with potential negative financial consequences
I'm an elitist? LOL.

I have worked hard to be a positive part of this sport, industry, culture, and community. Feel free to show me where I have done anything to the contrary.

I look forward to your reply.
 

jon coleman

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thread devolution
 

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tapeworm

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I'm an elitist? LOL.

I have worked hard to be a positive part of this sport, industry, culture, and community. Feel free to show me where I have done anything to the contrary.

I look forward to your reply.
I completely agree with you being a very influential and positive person, aspect, and character in this sport but the constant degradation of specific individuals in these threads comes off in a way of you saying “I’m better than you” and is specifically written in your post about mental disorders. To imply that this “mental disorder” never applies to certain men, including yourself, is why I used the word “elitism.” I used elitism because you came off acting that way, but from what I have seen on RDC you yourself are not an “elitist.” As males WE ALL make this elitism mistake during times. What I have watched most on RDC lately is ego driven responses by just about everyone because we are now predominantly run by the “me” generation. It’s very prevalent in this industry, website, and society in general. I’m not dissolved of the behavior neither, also myself falling into the tendencies to be selfish and need the attention too. Grace and forgiveness have been lost just as much as the opportunity to make a mistake on this forum. We now have to post in a “get it right the first time or be prepared to be stoned to death and eaten” lord of the flies style for opinions we state on this public forum. We have never met in person but I have only ever heard great things about you, but what I’m starting to see is a trend where you attack certain members and screen names personally instead of correcting things with factual information like you used too.

Mr. Pyle states that “buggy dorks” all have a complex and have to prove their worth, but most of this thread is him replying back insistent that 6100 trucks should get their way because they are big and mean and can hurt someone (paraphrasing and a generality.) His reasonings to me are more a lack of knowledge and driving ability(not directly related to him or his kids, but again a general statement applying to others in his class) in passing through the dust more so than safety related, but the factor of safety of a 6-7 thousand pound truck crushing a stopped or slowly moving lighter, smaller vehicle in the dust does serve some merit, but not so much that classes need to be relegated to becoming back markers. Class 10 quit whining about being behind slow 6100 trucks a while ago because reality is, when they start in front of 6100 they now have to deal with slow trophy trucks so what’s the difference? It’s no different for 6100. A few complain about being stuck behind the slow class 1 cars, but in reality it’s not the ones winning because they know how to pass. In my opinion, if you want to race through the least amount of dust you need to pay to play and when the beast is unleashed prepare for the consequences from behind. Mike is the loudest and most vocal one on the topic, even more so now than MG. If BITD is going to put the time and effort into qualifying 6100 then mix them into the starting order with the other classes as well, not just alone. The argument of “it’s scary to race through the dust not knowing how small the car ahead of us is” doesn’t carry merit to it inhibiting a class from running because of that car started in front of that whole class then every driver in that class has had to deal with said slow small vehicle, and if Mike (when he’s driving, not the kids) can’t pass that small car successfully then he doesn’t deserve to be running for the podium against the others in his class that had to deal with the exact same scenario. To me it’s coming off as Mike won’t be happy until there is a TT and Spec TT series so there is no worry of any other safety risks involved, but the reality is that the big money teams and entries are all so volatile that you have to bow to them to keep them around because they can take their money wherever they want. You crew for Honda and corporate decides what races you guys do. Honda has the ability to race wherever they want whenever they want. This is true of UTV’s sponsored by manufacturers and worldwide corporations as well. The volatility of being able to go where the sanctioning body will cater to your desires is what has brought this discussion up to begin with, because let’s face it… except for safety, rules changes are driven by product manufacturers and the top financial racers, not by what is best for the sport long term.

We cannot eliminate risk, and even small cars on small cars ends in horrible consequences. Unfortunately we saw that earlier this year with amazing people and it still saddens me knowing it happened at all let alone to great people in this sport, but at a certain point we need to assume responsibility for our decisions as well whether that be racing through the dust and hitting another car or entering into an upper class in a car not built to withstand the punishment of racing with the big dogs.

i voted mix it up, but I don’t think this is without negative consequences to the sport. I think BITD needs to essentially eliminate all classes except TT, class 1, 6100, class 10, class 5, 4100, unlimited UTV, Pro turbo, and Pro NA. They shouldn’t be A series for “the little guy.” That’s what MORE and SNORE are for and they do a better job of taking care of the limited class racers. It also comes down to education and experience. I don’t think someone with 4 years experience is a “veteran” in this sport by any means unless they lived in the sport and were under the tutelage of multiple SME’s. The guys winning in 6100 and UTV all started in limited classes, so why stifle that growth by imposing unnecessary rules to constrain them into rules and standards to serve only the top one or two classes. 6100 and TT aren’t paying the bills for BITD, MM, or SCORE. UTV’s are and if you alienate them you lose the luster of being the “top” series because the lack of funding eliminates the “fluff” around the series and spectators won’t show up.

This is all opinion and I fully expect to be burned at the stake for it. We are all humans, no one of us anymore special than the other in this sport because at the end of the day we all need one another to make these races happen, differences in opinions and attitudes and all. This isn’t a perfect reply and unfortunately the forums don’t portray emotions (or lack thereof) very well. I’m far from perfect but I’m an outsider looking in on the conversation so I’m not emotionally invested in my point of view. I’ll also never race anything faster than a 1600 car because I can’t afford it so my opinion carries very little relevance unless I somehow came up with a lucky idea that no one else has yet.

@dan200 i dont think you are an elitist, but I do think that post was an example of elitism towards one individual you dislike on the internet and have never met in person by degrading their opinion and input to the topic because of your opinion of that person.
 

dan200

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Fair enough. Of everyone on here that’s really the only guy who gets on my nerves. I have been the guy he has lashed out at. And mike is both a friend and a customer and also not an an a$$ Hat. Not in my opinion anyway. But maybe it was a lapse in judgment in my effort to defend him
By insulting someone who attacked him.

I will try to not be like that and hope he will do the same.
 
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J Prich

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We cannot eliminate risk, and even small cars on small cars ends in horrible consequences. Unfortunately we saw that earlier this year with amazing people and it still saddens me knowing it happened at all let alone to great people in this sport, but at a certain point we need to assume responsibility for our decisions as well whether that be racing through the dust and hitting another car or entering into an upper class in a car not built to withstand the punishment of racing with the big dogs.

Appreciate you taking the time to share a deep dive on your perspective. I singled out the above because it hits close to home for me personally and it’s a POV I’ve been pushing back on here and elsewhere. I personally have never advocated for thoughtful discussions on safety related issues like this one with the intent to eliminate ALL risk and have even stated that verbatim multiple times. Maybe this all or nothing angle is just a normal part of internet debate but I don’t think anyone is saying it’s even possible to take out all risk.

But by the same token, I don’t believe we should debase these discussions in favor of the nothing option, simply because you can’t take all risk out of the sport. The incident you mentioned that happened this year got in my head a lot and I wasn’t even at that event. But I can say with certainty that it absolutely shaped how I viewed the next event I was a part of. Even in accidents, I think it’s short sighted of us to not examine the circumstances and decide if there are reasonable measures we can take going forward to mitigate the future potential of those situations.

Accidents will always happen and you can’t live in a bubble but if there are reasonable things we can do proactively to reduce the chances of things like that happening and we DONT do them, simply because racing is risky and everyone knows the risks…then my personal view is we’re doing this way wrong. If we care about the people, and we care about the longevity of our sport, these are things we have to be doing as far as I’m concerned. If that makes me some kind of pansy according to internet code, I’m 100% good with that.
 
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