SNORE Class 5-1600 and possible class 9 & 11 Rule change / request / clarification

R. Gross

Well-Known Member
To open this thread, I would like to state that I am posting this thread on behalf of the majority of the 5-1600 class owners and drivers with their review and approval prior to posting along with a few of the class 9 guys who run a (1) seat car. Most wanted it posted on a public forum so they could view it and comment on it if they desire. Others clearly said they would view it, but not comment due to fear of retribution and that is fine. This thread is not intended to bash anyone or any organization, but is intended to start dialogue on the subject below.

It has come to light that there were some rule changes that affected some (2) seat classes that many were not aware of it until last week. In the PDF snapshot below of the current rulebook, a line was added at some time that states that “Any of the above two seat classes that want to race single seat must remove the passenger seat”. This line is what created the issues at the last race. After asking multiple Officials when that line was inserted into the rulebook, no one would or could tell the answer to the question. It also brought up the conversation on why any of the sanctioning bodies do not issue a narrative of what they are changing in the rule book from any given year to year. If this information is readily available, this issue would have never come to light.

In the next PDF snapshot of the 5-1600 specific class rules it states that this is a stock class and must remain so unless noted within. It also states that class rules take precedence over the SCR cross reference rules. All VW beetles came with (2) seats. It also states that you can remove the rear seat but says nothing in regards to removing the passenger seat.

In a conversation with Zach the Race director directly prior to qualifying with the rule book on his tail gate when I was emphatic that 5-1600 has always been a (2) seat class and that this is going to hurt the car counts. He did agree that “we changed the rules without consulting the class”. I give him kudos on recognizing that changing something in the general rules may not be good for a class or what the class wants. He did also suggest we just make a rule to add weight to those who want to run a single seat. We do not want to be weighed, we do not want to have to add weight. We do not want new rules and I am sure tech does not want to weigh more cars. After the rule clarification meeting Saturday night with the Officials in which they ruled in favor of the one driver in lieu of the opposition of the other 10 drivers, some of the 5-1600 guys wanted to remove their passenger seats for Sunday. It was agreed that no one would do that and condone the bad rule or lower ourselves to that level which may set precedence for the future of our class, so everyone ran 2 seats on Sunday.

In general conversations with the class, we all just want to come out and race and compete by the same rules that have been intact for years. No one is going to make a dollar racing above their race cost racing 5-1600, but we do it because we love off road racing and run a (2) seat car to get as many people in the seats and in the sport as possible. We just want everyone to do the same. We run (2) cars just for the reason we know that we do not have to pick and choose who gets seat time since we all work on the cars together.

There is also some concern from the single seat 9 guys who are looking that they have to meet a minimum weight of 200lbs more to run single seat while a (2) seat car per the general regulation can pull the passenger and seat hence losing additional weight after the 200 lbs advantage they already have per their class rules.

I am not sure if class 11 has any concerns, but if you give any class a 10% weight advantage. It does make a difference no matter what anyone says. That is why we design our cars to be as light, but as strong as possible.

In closing, the 5-1600 class is respectfully requesting that SNORE remove 5-1600 from the general SDC-1 regulation with the single seat option and remain a (2) seat class so we do not have to deal with this issue again the future. Hopefully this gets resolved at the next SNORE board meeting and we will be looking forward for an announcement.


Thank you for your time and consideration,
Class 5-1600
 

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J BomBer

Well-Known Member
Lol make 516 like 1600, weight limit, restrictor plates for two seat and single and let people use the rules to their advantage.
 

Ken Flippin

Well-Known Member
Like i said at the meeting that day Ive been in car 555 for about two weeks. ...so I ask respectfully, why change anything in this class? Who decided this change was warranted? When did the change take effect? Were any class reps consulted prior to the change? Was anyone notified after? I believe this will be a hot topic that needs answers, not just for 5-1600 but for the six classes mentioned in the attached rules. It looks like Class 3000 and Class 1900 made the decision to pull out of this problem, lets do that too. SNORE?
 

Revco

Active Member
The amount of harassing and threats that came from you and your clan to other competitors, snore officials would be fools not to ban you outright.
 

ONE_RJ

Well-Known Member
Why ruin the spirit of the way the stock class(es) were intended? I vote to change the rule back to a 2 seat class with 2 -Living , people as occupants required,
There are plenty of other single seat classes to go be fast in. No other promoter has made this rule change, why did SNORE change it?
 
As the race director I feel i should throw out a few facts about this topic at hand.

This (rule change) was not done within the last 5 years, I am still digging through meeting minutes farther back than that to see exactly when the rule was put in that any 2 seat classes can remove seats. With that being said the 2 true VW classes 11, and 5/1600 have raced at least the past 5 years with that rule in place and at the 2019 Battle at Primm, someone dove into the grey areas of the rule book to get an advantage (that was not needed). SNORE never agreed to saying the rule was changed without the class being notified because this has all been dormant until someone showed up with a single seat car.
2. I am not here to argue about any of this because its over and done with but I do have to say I told the class rep to get a class vote going and present it to the board to make a new rule change. The easiest way I have found, as I have done this with a few classes, is the class rep needs to get a large facebook group message going, contact all current 2019 5/1600 and 11 racers and ask the simple question: Would you like to make 5/1600 and 11 a permanent 2 seat class only going forward? Yes or No. Then take those numbers and bring them to the next board meeting, or email them to me racedirector@snoreracing.net and if there is 80% yes the rule will be changed and the new rule could potentially say this:

Class 1900, 2900, 3900, 5/1600, and 11 must always compete with one driver and one co-driver, unless vehicle is a single-seat factory production model.

I think a lot more could be done by going that route instead of pointing fingers, calling people out, or creating a forum for drama on here. Just my 2 cents.
Hope to see everyone in Caliente, should be fun and stay tuned for payback, bonuses and other exciting things we are planning for that race weekend! Pays more to race with SNORE!
 

J BomBer

Well-Known Member
Why ruin the spirit of the way the stock class(es) were intended? I vote to change the rule back to a 2 seat class with 2 -Living , people as occupants required,
There are plenty of other single seat classes to go be fast in. No other promoter has made this rule change, why did SNORE change it?
516 raced single seat short course as well, decades ago so the spirit has been gone since the 80s / 90s.
 

ONE_RJ

Well-Known Member
Wait that sounds to civil!!! We want drama and chaos on RDC

Who is the class 5-1600 rep?
 

ONE_RJ

Well-Known Member
That was a short course series at Glen Helen if I remember correctly and possibly SODA back East. I can’t remember a desert racing series making this rule. I vote the class has been a 2 seat class and should remain that.
 
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Ken Flippin

Well-Known Member
As the race director I feel i should throw out a few facts about this topic at hand.

This (rule change) was not done within the last 5 years, I am still digging through meeting minutes farther back than that to see exactly when the rule was put in that any 2 seat classes can remove seats. With that being said the 2 true VW classes 11, and 5/1600 have raced at least the past 5 years with that rule in place and at the 2019 Battle at Primm, someone dove into the grey areas of the rule book to get an advantage (that was not needed). SNORE never agreed to saying the rule was changed without the class being notified because this has all been dormant until someone showed up with a single seat car.
2. I am not here to argue about any of this because its over and done with but I do have to say I told the class rep to get a class vote going and present it to the board to make a new rule change. The easiest way I have found, as I have done this with a few classes, is the class rep needs to get a large facebook group message going, contact all current 2019 5/1600 and 11 racers and ask the simple question: Would you like to make 5/1600 and 11 a permanent 2 seat class only going forward? Yes or No. Then take those numbers and bring them to the next board meeting, or email them to me racedirector@snoreracing.net and if there is 80% yes the rule will be changed and the new rule could potentially say this:

Class 1900, 2900, 3900, 5/1600, and 11 must always compete with one driver and one co-driver, unless vehicle is a single-seat factory production model.

I think a lot more could be done by going that route instead of pointing fingers, calling people out, or creating a forum for drama on here. Just my 2 cents.
Hope to see everyone in Caliente, should be fun and stay tuned for payback, bonuses and other exciting things we are planning for that race weekend! Pays more to race with SNORE!

So can you set this up on the SNORE Facebook account as a thread for us? Sounds like a great idea, but it will need some safety limitations like you "must have raced snore in class 5-1600 in last two years." That would be verifiable by the Race Director and others (with your posted results pages).....and stops others from voting who never raced in the class. One car one vote.
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
To open this thread, I would like to state that I am posting this thread on behalf of the majority of the 5-1600 class owners and drivers with their review and approval prior to posting along with a few of the class 9 guys who run a (1) seat car. Most wanted it posted on a public forum so they could view it and comment on it if they desire. Others clearly said they would view it, but not comment due to fear of retribution and that is fine. This thread is not intended to bash anyone or any organization, but is intended to start dialogue on the subject below.

It has come to light that there were some rule changes that affected some (2) seat classes that many were not aware of it until last week. In the PDF snapshot below of the current rulebook, a line was added at some time that states that “Any of the above two seat classes that want to race single seat must remove the passenger seat”. This line is what created the issues at the last race. After asking multiple Officials when that line was inserted into the rulebook, no one would or could tell the answer to the question. It also brought up the conversation on why any of the sanctioning bodies do not issue a narrative of what they are changing in the rule book from any given year to year. If this information is readily available, this issue would have never come to light.

In the next PDF snapshot of the 5-1600 specific class rules it states that this is a stock class and must remain so unless noted within. It also states that class rules take precedence over the SCR cross reference rules. All VW beetles came with (2) seats. It also states that you can remove the rear seat but says nothing in regards to removing the passenger seat.

In a conversation with Zach the Race director directly prior to qualifying with the rule book on his tail gate when I was emphatic that 5-1600 has always been a (2) seat class and that this is going to hurt the car counts. He did agree that “we changed the rules without consulting the class”. I give him kudos on recognizing that changing something in the general rules may not be good for a class or what the class wants. He did also suggest we just make a rule to add weight to those who want to run a single seat. We do not want to be weighed, we do not want to have to add weight. We do not want new rules and I am sure tech does not want to weigh more cars. After the rule clarification meeting Saturday night with the Officials in which they ruled in favor of the one driver in lieu of the opposition of the other 10 drivers, some of the 5-1600 guys wanted to remove their passenger seats for Sunday. It was agreed that no one would do that and condone the bad rule or lower ourselves to that level which may set precedence for the future of our class, so everyone ran 2 seats on Sunday.

In general conversations with the class, we all just want to come out and race and compete by the same rules that have been intact for years. No one is going to make a dollar racing above their race cost racing 5-1600, but we do it because we love off road racing and run a (2) seat car to get as many people in the seats and in the sport as possible. We just want everyone to do the same. We run (2) cars just for the reason we know that we do not have to pick and choose who gets seat time since we all work on the cars together.

There is also some concern from the single seat 9 guys who are looking that they have to meet a minimum weight of 200lbs more to run single seat while a (2) seat car per the general regulation can pull the passenger and seat hence losing additional weight after the 200 lbs advantage they already have per their class rules.

I am not sure if class 11 has any concerns, but if you give any class a 10% weight advantage. It does make a difference no matter what anyone says. That is why we design our cars to be as light, but as strong as possible.

In closing, the 5-1600 class is respectfully requesting that SNORE remove 5-1600 from the general SDC-1 regulation with the single seat option and remain a (2) seat class so we do not have to deal with this issue again the future. Hopefully this gets resolved at the next SNORE board meeting and we will be looking forward for an announcement.


Thank you for your time and consideration,
Class 5-1600
you are completly wrong, beetles came with 3 seats never ever 2 so I do not knoew what your point is on that, I drove a vw to work for 25 years by myself so what is the point? the poor sportsman ship and death threats from you Robert Gross are completly wrong and my opinion you should be banned from ever racing Snore again you threatened to kill my son at the tree bar in front of Snore officials you should burry your head in shame. You are not worthy of representing 51600 as you are nothing but a hot headed fool that was displayed for everyone to see. It does not matter if the rule was put in 2 weeks before the race it was there in black and white for everyone to see that reads the rules which you obviously DID NOT. Jeremy made sure it was legal before pulling the seat that was 100 percent by Snores rules like it or not, Maybe if you spent time reading the rules instead of threatening people because you did not get your way you would have seen it and would not have made a complete and total ass of yourself. Yelling at Snore workers the way you did was unbelievable. Go ahead and attack us again, and you are not 51600
 
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offroadracer516

Well-Known Member
Honestly only been telling SNORE officials about this but since nothing has been done or was done when it should of been. I'll spill it. You yelled at the snore officials all weekend. Your family wanted to physically fight me at the 516 meeting because they were not getting their way. You insulted my entire family with absurd name calling in front of everyone again because you were not getting your way. And at the tree bar on saturday night as I was talking to a few snore officials. You walked up out of no where in a drunken rage threatening to fight me and "kick my teeth in" SCREAMING at me. I didn't even know you were there till you walked up reeking of liquor sluring and screaming. The snore officials asked you to leave at that point. But you didn't, you proceeded to stock me at the tree bar with Allan Gross. Legit walking around the tree bar following me. Allan mean mugging me constantly. Making it so uncomfortable that I left to my room. Your entire team should be banned from SNORE. Totally unacceptable actions. You really think I wasn't going to say something??? Honestly never experienced anything like it in my 30 years of going to offroad races. Funny how you talk all respectful on here but that's the absolute last thing you are. Im with voting for the rule change but your team should be totally exempt from competition in the future. Your actions are unacceptable.
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
Why ruin the spirit of the way the stock class(es) were intended? I vote to change the rule back to a 2 seat class with 2 -Living , people as occupants required,
There are plenty of other single seat classes to go be fast in. No other promoter has made this rule change, why did SNORE change it?
there is no spirit to the class, this class has on many occasions raced single seat and when it says in writing IE in black and white you can take the seat out we did
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
That was a short course series at Glen Helen if I remember correctly and possibly SODA back East. I can’t remember a desert racing series making this rule. I vote the class has been a 2 seat class and should remain that.
you remember wrong, Score has allowed single seat so did HDRA in 51600 making things up does not prove your point, The last thing BAP is is a desert race nor is Rage but that matters not when it says in the rules you can do something and we chose to do it it would not matter what race it was. We did not write the rule but I know its been there awhile
 

ONE_RJ

Well-Known Member
I never said what you guys did was illegal. All I am saying is the class has forever been known as a 2 seat class and should remain that way like the other desert promoters rules are written.
I don’t want to argue with you but SNORE is a desert series that is raced in the desert. Yes BAP and Rage are short mileage loops and considered a short course race but still raced in the desert not on a closed course stadium style like Glen Helen, Riverside , Willow Springs , Lucas Oil etc is what I am referring ,where a single seat should be considered. The rule doesn’t state its only for Short course races like it should say.
Snore runs a 6 race desert series only 2 of those races are short mileage loops wouldn’t it make more sense to keep the rule consistent with all the other promoters rules?
 
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snoreracer

Well-Known Member
Looks like he read the rule book and asked the race director to make sure . But put the 2nd seat in on Sunday and the results was the same, he went out and kicked but so it did not make a difference . Robert the best way to change the rule is to contact the racers and get what they want and take it to SNORE . sorry but doing it this way makes you look like a sore loser
 

Bro_Gill

Well-Known Member
Regardless of what happened at BAP, the class had been traditionally a 2 seat class every where it was run EXCEPT a few shortcourse venues in the past. In fact, the SCORE rules stated FOR DECADES that class 5-1600 and class 11 MUST RACE with 2 occupants for any long course event, period. I understand how cut and paste sometimes screws up things when trying to update rule books, etc... and I applaud SNORE for allowing the single seat car to compete as it was in the rules 'as written' but they need to be changed back for the benefit of the class. Regardless of what some folks think, that passenger seat is one of the best representatives to get people involved in this sport there is. I also seem to remember a guy with a blue 5-1600 car always looking for the skinniest lightest 12 year old kid he could find to put in the passenger seat to gain a weight advantage over many years of racing short course at places like Riverside, Glen Helen, Antelope Valley, Willow Springs, etc...
 

harleys dad

Well-Known Member
Regardless of what happened at BAP, the class had been traditionally a 2 seat class every where it was run EXCEPT a few shortcourse venues in the past. In fact, the SCORE rules stated FOR DECADES that class 5-1600 and class 11 MUST RACE with 2 occupants for any long course event, period. I understand how cut and paste sometimes screws up things when trying to update rule books, etc... and I applaud SNORE for allowing the single seat car to compete as it was in the rules 'as written' but they need to be changed back for the benefit of the class. Regardless of what some folks think, that passenger seat is one of the best representatives to get people involved in this sport there is. I also seem to remember a guy with a blue 5-1600 car always looking for the skinniest lightest 12 year old kid he could find to put in the passenger seat to gain a weight advantage over many years of racing short course at places like Riverside, Glen Helen, Antelope Valley, Willow Springs, etc...
I know darn well you cant be talking about my blue car as my wife was always with me if I ran 2 seats
 

Grease Weed

Well-Known Member
You can leave Class 9 out of this too. We have weight rules. As long as you meet the requirements you can run whatever. 1550 for single, 1350 for two seat.
 
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