R. Gross
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To open this thread, I would like to state that I am posting this thread on behalf of the majority of the 5-1600 class owners and drivers with their review and approval prior to posting along with a few of the class 9 guys who run a (1) seat car. Most wanted it posted on a public forum so they could view it and comment on it if they desire. Others clearly said they would view it, but not comment due to fear of retribution and that is fine. This thread is not intended to bash anyone or any organization, but is intended to start dialogue on the subject below.
It has come to light that there were some rule changes that affected some (2) seat classes that many were not aware of it until last week. In the PDF snapshot below of the current rulebook, a line was added at some time that states that “Any of the above two seat classes that want to race single seat must remove the passenger seat”. This line is what created the issues at the last race. After asking multiple Officials when that line was inserted into the rulebook, no one would or could tell the answer to the question. It also brought up the conversation on why any of the sanctioning bodies do not issue a narrative of what they are changing in the rule book from any given year to year. If this information is readily available, this issue would have never come to light.
In the next PDF snapshot of the 5-1600 specific class rules it states that this is a stock class and must remain so unless noted within. It also states that class rules take precedence over the SCR cross reference rules. All VW beetles came with (2) seats. It also states that you can remove the rear seat but says nothing in regards to removing the passenger seat.
In a conversation with Zach the Race director directly prior to qualifying with the rule book on his tail gate when I was emphatic that 5-1600 has always been a (2) seat class and that this is going to hurt the car counts. He did agree that “we changed the rules without consulting the class”. I give him kudos on recognizing that changing something in the general rules may not be good for a class or what the class wants. He did also suggest we just make a rule to add weight to those who want to run a single seat. We do not want to be weighed, we do not want to have to add weight. We do not want new rules and I am sure tech does not want to weigh more cars. After the rule clarification meeting Saturday night with the Officials in which they ruled in favor of the one driver in lieu of the opposition of the other 10 drivers, some of the 5-1600 guys wanted to remove their passenger seats for Sunday. It was agreed that no one would do that and condone the bad rule or lower ourselves to that level which may set precedence for the future of our class, so everyone ran 2 seats on Sunday.
In general conversations with the class, we all just want to come out and race and compete by the same rules that have been intact for years. No one is going to make a dollar racing above their race cost racing 5-1600, but we do it because we love off road racing and run a (2) seat car to get as many people in the seats and in the sport as possible. We just want everyone to do the same. We run (2) cars just for the reason we know that we do not have to pick and choose who gets seat time since we all work on the cars together.
There is also some concern from the single seat 9 guys who are looking that they have to meet a minimum weight of 200lbs more to run single seat while a (2) seat car per the general regulation can pull the passenger and seat hence losing additional weight after the 200 lbs advantage they already have per their class rules.
I am not sure if class 11 has any concerns, but if you give any class a 10% weight advantage. It does make a difference no matter what anyone says. That is why we design our cars to be as light, but as strong as possible.
In closing, the 5-1600 class is respectfully requesting that SNORE remove 5-1600 from the general SDC-1 regulation with the single seat option and remain a (2) seat class so we do not have to deal with this issue again the future. Hopefully this gets resolved at the next SNORE board meeting and we will be looking forward for an announcement.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Class 5-1600
It has come to light that there were some rule changes that affected some (2) seat classes that many were not aware of it until last week. In the PDF snapshot below of the current rulebook, a line was added at some time that states that “Any of the above two seat classes that want to race single seat must remove the passenger seat”. This line is what created the issues at the last race. After asking multiple Officials when that line was inserted into the rulebook, no one would or could tell the answer to the question. It also brought up the conversation on why any of the sanctioning bodies do not issue a narrative of what they are changing in the rule book from any given year to year. If this information is readily available, this issue would have never come to light.
In the next PDF snapshot of the 5-1600 specific class rules it states that this is a stock class and must remain so unless noted within. It also states that class rules take precedence over the SCR cross reference rules. All VW beetles came with (2) seats. It also states that you can remove the rear seat but says nothing in regards to removing the passenger seat.
In a conversation with Zach the Race director directly prior to qualifying with the rule book on his tail gate when I was emphatic that 5-1600 has always been a (2) seat class and that this is going to hurt the car counts. He did agree that “we changed the rules without consulting the class”. I give him kudos on recognizing that changing something in the general rules may not be good for a class or what the class wants. He did also suggest we just make a rule to add weight to those who want to run a single seat. We do not want to be weighed, we do not want to have to add weight. We do not want new rules and I am sure tech does not want to weigh more cars. After the rule clarification meeting Saturday night with the Officials in which they ruled in favor of the one driver in lieu of the opposition of the other 10 drivers, some of the 5-1600 guys wanted to remove their passenger seats for Sunday. It was agreed that no one would do that and condone the bad rule or lower ourselves to that level which may set precedence for the future of our class, so everyone ran 2 seats on Sunday.
In general conversations with the class, we all just want to come out and race and compete by the same rules that have been intact for years. No one is going to make a dollar racing above their race cost racing 5-1600, but we do it because we love off road racing and run a (2) seat car to get as many people in the seats and in the sport as possible. We just want everyone to do the same. We run (2) cars just for the reason we know that we do not have to pick and choose who gets seat time since we all work on the cars together.
There is also some concern from the single seat 9 guys who are looking that they have to meet a minimum weight of 200lbs more to run single seat while a (2) seat car per the general regulation can pull the passenger and seat hence losing additional weight after the 200 lbs advantage they already have per their class rules.
I am not sure if class 11 has any concerns, but if you give any class a 10% weight advantage. It does make a difference no matter what anyone says. That is why we design our cars to be as light, but as strong as possible.
In closing, the 5-1600 class is respectfully requesting that SNORE remove 5-1600 from the general SDC-1 regulation with the single seat option and remain a (2) seat class so we do not have to deal with this issue again the future. Hopefully this gets resolved at the next SNORE board meeting and we will be looking forward for an announcement.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Class 5-1600
