Speed Pre-Order

Zambo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Posts
4,486
Reaction
2,533
Location
San Diego, CA
If you are deliberately trying to make the steering on your X3 as terrible as possible, I suggest putting 4+3 wheels on it. Geometry matters. OK back to the Speed thread.

I really like the look of these cars and would love to have one, but I'm gonna wait until they are proven first. Frankly I wish some of the established manufacturers would take note of some of the things Robby is doing and incorporate them into their new models. Just simple ideas like making it easy to carry a spare tire or easy to mount a radio/gps would go a long way, if not really radical ideas such as double sheering suspension points.
 

A-Tech_Racing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Posts
49
Reaction
17
Location
So. Cal.
Website
www.atechfabrication.com
I think Robby will go all out in getting some cars shipped out this year. He made a point of saying he is not doing anything else unless he is under contract like the SST's. I think they will have samples of most production parts soon, but that dialing in the production procedures is going to add time. And some of the production parts will end up needing revisions adding more time. My guess about 250 cars this year. With production ramping up big time next year.
 

calstyl2

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2013
Posts
541
Reaction
920
Location
Cherry Valley, CA
Robby is in near panic mode, they way behind the timeline to deliver, pressure is building from funding sources and buyers, the current market for parts is not good. Competition is building cars that will be available at the same time or before his product is delivered. Personally, I know numerous people who have been ripped off by him or his companies so it wont break my heart when this all crumbles down.
 

43mod

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Posts
4,066
Reaction
3,512
Location
colusa california
Wheel offset does not dictate bump steer . That is a function of steering geometry .
How many can utvs a day are other companies making ? 80 per day most likely is a very small number in comparison . I dont think the line will be much of a hold up .
 

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Posts
213
Reaction
163
Location
west hills, ca
Wheel offset does not dictate bump steer . That is a function of steering geometry .
How many can utvs a day are other companies making ? 80 per day most likely is a very small number in comparison . I dont think the line will be much of a hold up .

On the 72" wide Can Am the bigger wheel off-set causes all sorts of steering wheel feedback, which makes the bumpsteer even more fun when you are working the wheel with a ton of feedback. You don't realize how much feedback you are experiencing until you take a another car for a spin that has proper off-set wheels.

I would guess the bigger companies like Polaris and Can Am are rolling off 1,000 or more SXS a day off the lines. It was about 4 years ago Polaris rolled the 1 millionth Ranger off the line.

Until they nail down the production line process it is going to be slow going. Todd talked about changing parts to make the production line process faster. Changing a part requires new tooling, testing and getting the vendor to make it. Sounded like each time they changed a part it could set them back weeks.
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,062
Reaction
516
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Wheel offset does not dictate bump steer . That is a function of steering geometry .
How many can utvs a day are other companies making ? 80 per day most likely is a very small number in comparison . I dont think the line will be much of a hold up .
Sure it can. You are affecting the SAI which can cause the steering to change and be more sensitive to bumps, impacts and road deviations.
When going from 5/1 as the stock wheel to 4/3, you are moving the stock center pivot point out an unnatural 2"...also the heavier weight of a larger tire in concert makes it worse.

Scrub as angles also change.

All this can cause bump steer.
Now if you designed the susp/steering for this configuration, different story.

My stock XX with 5/1 wheels and stock 30s handles completely different than my brothers with 4/3 and 32s...much nicer IMO.

Why I am keeping mine stock. He breaks sheet all the time too.

Some cars have less of an issue than others...depends on all the angles as stock. A lot of caster helps with added bump steer also. Wish we could adjust it.
 

Zambo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Posts
4,486
Reaction
2,533
Location
San Diego, CA
Not to beat a dead horse but he wasn't saying that the offset doesn't affect the handling, he was just saying that it doesn't affect bump steer which is a function of the toe changing as the suspension cycles up and down. People often refer to the feedback through the steering that occurs due to a large scrub radius as bump steer which is incorrect.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Posts
3,919
Reaction
1,743
Location
San Diego
Until they nail down the production line process it is going to be slow going. Todd talked about changing parts to make the production line process faster. Changing a part requires new tooling, testing and getting the vendor to make it. Sounded like each time they changed a part it could set them back weeks.
I think you miss understood what Todd was saying. It’s not “Nailing Down the Production Line Process”. That’s in place. Hisun in TX where the car will be final assembled is also a CM (Contract Manufacture) and assembles vehicles for many brands and companies. They have the “Process” and equipment down. Coincidentally I have seen a video of this plants assembly line from a customer that buys parts from the company I work for. It’s funny to read and hear people wanting & demanding to see an assembly line, like that’s going to make this Speed UTV more real or more fake? Not sure what they think they will see?

Two things Todd was talking about is sub assemblies prior to final assembly on the production line. This is where you figure out what is the most efficient way to pre assemble prior to final assemble. Like the bulk head. It’s going to be assembled with gears in it before it hits the assemble line. But do you want the lower & upper a-arms on there too? What about the steering rack and tie rods? Will having that on speed up assembly or slow them down, as its now a bulkier part to plug in? This is what their contract manufactures production engineers and production coordinators are working on. It’s not Todd & Robby figuring this out folks!

Then the other part Todd mentioned is 3 party contract suppliers and single/sole source and second source suppliers. And when a supplier does not build to the exact spec Speed UTV is asking for, or maybe the supplier makes a slight change thinking it’s better for them, or a cost cutting change. That’s when they can have production assembly issues as things won’t mate or fit together properly. A few hundreds off and parts like the bulkhead don’t bolt up properly to the chassis.

Since it’s been out awhile I can say the E-Tec Shot starting system the BRP Ski Doo uses, is the company I work for’s design & product. We build and design Ultra Capacitor cells and modules. The Ski Doo uses our ultra capacitor module for a starting system in its sleds. It’s advanced technology that is light weight, quick to charge & discharge. Can be cycled thousands of times, and temperatures don’t effect it. We’ve got these in missiles seeing s#it tons of G forces. This is how I know and understand how manufacturing works and what Todd’s talking about.

Check out these two videos about the “Can Am/BRP” E-Tec Shot starting system.


 
Last edited:

partybarge_pilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Posts
6,724
Reaction
1,554
Location
Easton, KS
Late to the party....

Steering rack. Looking at it my thoughts are that the end plates do not hold the ram and rack rigidly. The flex between the 2 is causing chatter.

Exhaust manifold. Inconel LOLZ. Price point on that is GOV spending level.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Posts
3,919
Reaction
1,743
Location
San Diego
Late to the party....

Steering rack. Looking at it my thoughts are that the end plates do not hold the ram and rack rigidly. The flex between the 2 is causing chatter.

Exhaust manifold. Inconel LOLZ. Price point on that is GOV spending level.
Regarding the steering rack, that’s a more logical probability vs the Ram being to far away as suggested. But wouldn’t you also feel the chatter or something in the steering under hard loads if those end caps were flexing? RG said he’s is only feeling a slight chatter on small washboard.
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,062
Reaction
516
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Not to beat a dead horse but he wasn't saying that the offset doesn't affect the handling, he was just saying that it doesn't affect bump steer which is a function of the toe changing as the suspension cycles up and down. People often refer to the feedback through the steering that occurs due to a large scrub radius as bump steer which is incorrect.
I stand corrected based on what the true definition of bump steer is. Impact feedback on the steering is enhanced with a change in SAI.
Wander is also enhanced.
 

partybarge_pilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Posts
6,724
Reaction
1,554
Location
Easton, KS
Regarding the steering rack, that’s a more logical probability vs the Ram being to far away as suggested. But wouldn’t you also feel the chatter or something in the steering under hard loads if those end caps were flexing? RG said he’s is only feeling a slight chatter on small washboard.
Not necessarily, When it's loaded in a hard turn it may not oscillate. Light chatter that would be switching directions may set it off. Everything has a resonant frequency and light chatter may hit this things sweet spot.
 

partybarge_pilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Posts
6,724
Reaction
1,554
Location
Easton, KS
Not to beat a dead horse but he wasn't saying that the offset doesn't affect the handling, he was just saying that it doesn't affect bump steer which is a function of the toe changing as the suspension cycles up and down. People often refer to the feedback through the steering that occurs due to a large scrub radius as bump steer which is incorrect.
But large offset wheels will make any bumpsteer much more apparent.
 

michael.gonzalez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Posts
4,450
Reaction
1,672
Location
Camarillo, CA
Website
www.facebook.com
Steering rack. Looking at it my thoughts are that the end plates do not hold the ram and rack rigidly.
I was thinking the same thing. A billet piece may be better for the tie-rod/rack/ram tie-ins. That mount needs to have a sturdy connection to the ram that is able to react the moment from the tie-rod/rack into the ram shaft.

Looking at how the TT's mount the ends of the ram shaft to the rest of the rack.....

One is more of a boss. One is more of flat plate.

RACK1.jpg
RACK2.png
 
Last edited:

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Posts
213
Reaction
163
Location
west hills, ca
I think you miss understood what Todd was saying. It’s not “Nailing Down the Production Line Process”. That’s in place. Hisun in TX where the car will be final assembled is also a CM (Contract Manufacture) and assembles vehicles for many brands and companies. They have the “Process” and equipment down. Coincidentally I have seen a video of this plants assembly line from a customer that buys parts from the company I work for. It’s funny to read and hear people wanting & demanding to see an assembly line, like that’s going to make this Speed UTV more real or more fake? Not sure what they think they will see?

Two things Todd was talking about is sub assemblies prior to final assembly on the production line. This is where you figure out what is the most efficient way to pre assemble prior to final assemble. Like the bulk head. It’s going to be assembled with gears in it before it hits the assemble line. But do you want the lower & upper a-arms on there too? What about the steering rack and tie rods? Will having that on speed up assembly or slow them down, as its now a bulkier part to plug in? This is what their contract manufactures production engineers and production coordinators are working on. It’s not Todd & Robby figuring this out folks!

Then the other part Todd mentioned is 3 party contract suppliers and single/sole source and second source suppliers. And when a supplier does not build to the exact spec Speed UTV is asking for, or maybe the supplier makes a slight change thinking it’s better for them, or a cost cutting change. That’s when they can have production assembly issues as things won’t mate or fit together properly. A few hundreds off and parts like the bulkhead don’t bolt up properly to the chassis.

Since it’s been out awhile I can say the E-Tec Shot starting system the BRP Ski Doo uses, is the company I work for’s design & product. We build and design Ultra Capacitor cells and modules. The Ski Doo uses our ultra capacitor module for a starting system in its sleds. It’s advanced technology that is light weight, quick to charge & discharge. Can be cycled thousands of times, and temperatures don’t effect it. We’ve got these in missiles seeing s#it tons of G forces. This is how I know and understand how manufacturing works and what Todd’s talking about.

Check out these two videos about the “Can Am/BRP” E-Tec Shot starting system.



The way I heard it he was talking about the production line process of assembling the car. I take the sub assembly as part of the overall assembly line process. What I understood is that they took some material off the bulkhead to make it quicker to drop into the frame on the assembly line. This resulted in some changes in the bulkhead and tooling. This was just one part and I am sure there are many more they changed for the sub-assembly and assembly line. What I got from the explanation was each time they change a part it sets them back because of tooling changes and having the vendor make the part to their standards.

They way things were in the last show it certainly did not sound like a Speed UTV was going to be in a customers hand anytime soon. Certainly not by the Sand Show, where it sounded like they were hoping to have some of the pre-production cars on display.

The E-tec start is pretty cool.
 

partybarge_pilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Posts
6,724
Reaction
1,554
Location
Easton, KS
I was thinking the same thing. A billet piece may be better for the tie-rod/rack/ram tie-ins. That mount needs to have a sturdy connection to the ram that is able to react the moment from the tie-rod/rack into the ram shaft.

Looking at how the TT's mount the ends of the ram shaft to the rest of the rack.....

One is more of a boss. One is more of flat plate.

View attachment 228548View attachment 228549

Edzacory, the length of the plate is not helping any either. I forsee cracks in it long term. Need to make the shaft for the ram longer and the plate thicker. Then sink the shaft into it with a pinch bolt on the bottom the clamp the shaft into the end plate. Rack end needs redesign with the rack being longer with 2 bolts per end going into the end plate vertically. This would stiffen it up considerably.
 

A-Tech_Racing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Posts
49
Reaction
17
Location
So. Cal.
Website
www.atechfabrication.com
Exhaust manifold. Inconel LOLZ. Price point on that is GOV spending level.
They had already factored in the higher cost of Inconel. It sounds like the first batch of manifolds was made from Inconel but they were “blowing up cutters” while machining them according to Robby. A better solution would have been to solve the machining problem rather than going to a softer material.

What were the prototype manifolds made from? Was the one in the dyno test where the manifold reached almost white hot for several minutes the welded manifold or the one-piece casting?

Although Inconel retains its strength better at high temperatures, it actually melts at a lower temp than stainless. So either material could be used in the same casting mold.

But if all the testing was done with stainless and they were just upgrading it to Inconel during production, using stainless should not be an issue.
 

norutah

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Posts
48
Reaction
30
Location
Norutah
Sch 10 stainless is the way to go on that exhaust.
I do not know which is better. My complaint is that speed talked that inconel manifold up for months like it was the best thing since sliced bread. Going on about how exotic it is and how you would find this technology in F1. They really hyped it up and then pulled it away with little mention. I'm neither here nor there on the schedule; I could be upset but I'm more concerned that it's executed properly. I can wait. Just quit pulling parts, materials, and technology that people paid for.
 
Top