Speed Pre-Order

norutah

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Posts
104
RDC Crypto
93
Location
Norutah
Went through several sawzall blades too. LOL!

My new X3 moved about as much as yours when the stock cage was unbolted. Yamaha YXZ is even worse when you remove the cage.
Against my better judgement, back in the day I helped my brother-in-law chop a RZR cage while his was being built. It spread 3" out on both a pillars when we unbolted it. We had to use 3" ratchet straps to bolt it back on. I was expecting the plates the sheer off the bolts when we released the straps.
 

Zambo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Posts
4,550
RDC Crypto
2,733
Location
San Diego, CA
Before I welded my cage on and welded in door bars, I would jack the car up by the frame when taking off the cage. Once the cage is off the car flexes like crazy. The front and rear pillar mounts probably get at least an inch or two closer/further depending on if the car is on its wheels or if the suspension is dangling.
 

A-Tech_Racing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Posts
79
RDC Crypto
50
Location
So. Cal.
Website
www.atechfabrication.com
Edited to add, nowhere did I say using thicker tubes led to better engineering. I was asking you a question.

See above, there are some photos of both bare chassis up there.

Canam supposedly uses an "exotic" material (dual phase 980 steel), I know nothing about it. However we all know it is much thinner.

I am asking your expertise based on the drawings and the facts. Which is a "better engineered" chassis?
Those photos were not showing up when I first replied.

There is no way to evaluate the design from a photo. The most important areas are the load points, that is where strength needs to be highest, from there you can reduce strength the farther away you get -like how tree branches get smaller at the ends.

There is nothing wrong with the Speed UTV chassis design that I can see. I was just pointing out Robby himself said the cars are a lot heavier than the competition. And that you could build a much lighter chassis (with the same strength) by designing it with door bars like every class 1, 2, 10, 9, 12, 1-1600 car. I figure you could shed 25% of the weight without losing strength.

No matter what, it must comply with rules, all roll cage tubes must be .095 minimum. That only leaves a few tubes where you could go thinner. But I prefer to reduce the number/length of tubes rather than making them thinner. That is where good design comes in.
 

A-Tech_Racing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Posts
79
RDC Crypto
50
Location
So. Cal.
Website
www.atechfabrication.com
When a chassis moves after being cut in half, that is a clear sign of bad tube fitment and too much welding heat which pulls everything closer together as it cools. Does not matter if it was welded in a jig, the internal stresses build up and are there forever. Those same internal stresses can lead to failure since now it takes less load for the joint to yield.
 

the_owl

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Posts
49
RDC Crypto
34
Location
Albuquerque
Is the Canam chassis better engineered with thinner material then say the Speed UTV using a "lower grade" material but thicker in diameter and in wall with triangulation?

Apples to apples

View attachment 233538View attachment 233539
Robby pointed out that his cage ties directly into the chassis at every point. all the way to the bottom. Called it ghost or dead links on rzr and canam. that was months ago
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,355
RDC Crypto
852
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Oh come on TL..... please read back your last sentence to yourself outloud, maybe even record it and play it back so you hear it..... "since he is not secretive about it" ..... I'll wait.....

Finished? Did you start laughing at yourself out loud? You believe anything he says is more than a half truth you're kidding yourself.
WTF are you talking about?
He raced the car last weekend...I'm not talking about the minutia.
Where's the "pro" R?
It's a legitimate question...I watched the evolution of the XX from the beginning...why I bought one. The XXX has been in the works since 2019...with its roots in the XX.
When did Polaris start on the R?
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,355
RDC Crypto
852
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Speed has had several variations , with that they scrapped one and moved to the next like any other oem , the only difference is Speed was public about it and taking money ahead of time which rubs people the wrong way when they're still waiting on a car they paid whatever for back in 2019 at the SSS (in reference to the 4seat XX's) that they haven't received yet to this day. Some food for thought though - Carb testing - if you change anything - lines, clutch calibration, exhaust/intake design etc - you have to re-certify. If engines are being ran on the dyno for calibration purposes yet its a lot farther off than most are wanting to admit.

Polaris is plagued with bringing something to the market to meet demand without due diligence - they're doing it now on the snow side with a recall on already shipped 850 sleds that are prone to engine failure. At some point they need to stop putting the cart before the horse and realize what its costing them in the long run - Canam has killed their market share in the sport/turbo market.
Thanks for the response Alex.
You have always answered my questions...except you didn't answer the original question on when Polaris started their R&D on the new R...if you can't answer...I understand...but that is still an answer.
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,355
RDC Crypto
852
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Against my better judgement, back in the day I helped my brother-in-law chop a RZR cage while his was being built. It spread 3" out on both a pillars when we unbolted it. We had to use 3" ratchet straps to bolt it back on. I was expecting the plates the sheer off the bolts when we released the straps.
Did the same thing. Ratchet straps are your friend when chopping stock cages.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Posts
4,104
RDC Crypto
2,077
Location
San Diego
Before I welded my cage on and welded in door bars, I would jack the car up by the frame when taking off the cage. Once the cage is off the car flexes like crazy. The front and rear pillar mounts probably get at least an inch or two closer/further depending on if the car is on its wheels or if the suspension is dangling.
From what I know, both the Can Am X3 & RZR need the upper cage for chassis rigidity. Like you said they flex more then you would expect. I had a similar experience just recently helping a friend put a cage on his RZR XP4. We could not get the new cage to bolt up in his driveway, which is lightly sloped down and to an angle. We finally rolled it into the street and with a drift punch in the cage mount we were able to line it up and bolt it on. In the driveway we could not get close.

I think that is one aspect most overlook or people don’t see with the Speed chassis is the double lower rails. That gives the lower frame and suspension points a much greater rigidity and strength.

Regarding the steel used on the Can Am
and how people call it the saw blade killer. That’s because it’s made from Dual Phase 980 steel. I had no idea what Dual Phase was and from reading up on it you have to be a metallurgist or engineer to understand it! So one day I asked Greg at Competitive Metals what is Dual Phase? He said it’s been around for a long time, but did not get popular until the auto industry picked it up. When cars had to start meeting crash & safety standards along with emissions, this is when it got popular. Does anyone remember when Ford was promoting the “New Steel” in their trucks, around the early 2000’s? That was Duel Phase.

What’s good about it is it’s property’s allow it to be thin (lightweight to help with fuel economy) but strong. It’s also very formable in the stamping and shaping process. After it’s shaped it’s then heated up, like heat treating.(Thus the saw blade killer!) This allowed the auto makers to be able to create crumple zones due to low yield but also rigid structures to protect the passengers. Where the DP was implemented was in the inner unibody fender wells, A,B & C pillars, roof bracing etc.. this DP also helped make the cars more rigid for better handling. Another benefit was the affordability of manufacturing DP steel.

I then asked why are we not seeing it used in racing or off road where we want to be lightweight? Greg said was it’s not ideal to use in a consistent high stress environment. Because it’s got a low yield which means it can bend but spring back, and because it’s heat treated. It’s strong, but becomes more brittle. For a passenger car it’s got one crash to do it’s job. It’s disposable after a crash. But in a buggy where each mile is like a crash, over time it becomes fatigued and the tube itself will start to crack. Unlike mild steel that is softer and will bend or kink before shearing, DP will shear easier.

This would also explain why we have seen Can Am chassis crack or shear tubes in the middle or random spot and not necessarily next to a weld like where we would expect to find a crack.

BTW Ford just started using a new Gen 3 steel called ArcelorMittal or Fortiform 980. They claim it’s stronger and lighter then the aluminum they are currently using. Like DP it too is heat treated after being shaped. I think the Bronco is being built with this Gen 3 steel.
 

snivilous

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Posts
30
RDC Crypto
82
Location
United States
Yield is how much stress something can take before it permanently deforms, "low yield" means something can't bend very far and is usually the opposite of what you want. Likewise I don't know what a more "reliable" metal means. My understanding is DOM has a higher yield strength than "regular" mild steel due to strain hardening and being cold formed. This does not mean it's stiffness or ultimate tensile strength is improved, just that it can deflect more before it's permanently deformed.

Obviously the "cage" (upper section) is extremely important structurally. When the front or rear suspension compresses a bending moment is applied through the chassis which tries to compress the top and tension the bottom. This is why convertible cars are less stiff (vertically) and require massive door sills, because the height of their beam (for simplification) is only a few inches instead of a few feet. This is why when you cut the "cage" off current SXS they turn into a noodle, you just removed the vast majority of the moment capability and stiffness! The speed and the can am chassis shown on the previous page both have that same issue. The speed however has a fully integrated "cage" which would help in some regards---however if you cut that off I would bet it does the exact same thing as the can am! Obviously the speed has much more bracing in other areas, and I'm not up to speed (ha) on the failure areas of the can am, but when I look at the chassis I see very stiff areas on the speed that are still connected with a pretty weak structure, vs the can am that is not stiff areas connected with a not stiff center section. And without going down the rabbit hole, obviously there's only so much one can do when doors are required (doors just f*** up trusses!). So take all that as you will.

Lots of incorrect information and wording, though I did like A-Techs wording that design is superior to just material geometry. Obviously they go hand in hand, but conclusions shouldn't be too heavily based on "this tube is thicker", especially when we're talking about trusses.

Also, as someone who designs and works on very complicated systems, I'm still firm that there is no way in hell production units are done this year and in customers hands or even for the vast majority of next year. The sand sports show and the race reinforce that idea even more, right now it's what I'd call an engineering development unit, not even a true prototype. Just my $.02 on everything!
 

Bebop

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2021
Posts
21
RDC Crypto
16
Location
TN
BTW Ford just started using a new Gen 3 steel called ArcelorMittal or Fortiform 980.

Arcelor Mittal is the company that makes Fortiform980.


I then asked why are we not seeing it used in racing or off road where we want to be lightweight? Greg said was it’s not ideal to use in a consistent high stress environment. Because it’s got a low yield which means it can bend but spring back, and because it’s heat treated. It’s strong, but becomes more brittle. For a passenger car it’s got one crash to do it’s job. It’s disposable after a crash. But in a buggy where each mile is like a crash, over time it becomes fatigued and the tube itself will start to crack. Unlike mild steel that is softer and will bend or kink before shearing, DP will shear easier.
Just like DOM vs chromoly ?
 

afortune46

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Posts
132
RDC Crypto
222
Location
Iowa
Thanks for the response Alex.
You have always answered my questions...except you didn't answer the original question on when Polaris started their R&D on the new R...if you can't answer...I understand...but that is still an answer.
I honestly don't know unfortunately.
 

Total Loss

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
1,355
RDC Crypto
852
Location
Prescott Valley, Az.
Many seem to forget there was a thing called a plandemic right smack dab in the middle of RGs plans...now we have material rising costs, shortages, delivery issues,, workers being paid to not work...etc

I blame Brandon.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Posts
4,104
RDC Crypto
2,077
Location
San Diego
Many seem to forget there was a thing called a plandemic right smack dab in the middle of RGs plans...now we have material rising costs, shortages, delivery issues,, workers being paid to not work...etc

I blame Brandon.
I think this will ultimately be what the big delay in getting Speed UTV’s built. Right now we have over 100 container ships off the West Coast just sitting and waiting to get to dock & be unloaded. My broker told me we will have another 45 ships expected to show up by the end of this week. She said the “experts” at the ports are saying it could take until June of 22 to just unload what is in route. If the ships continue in the volumes they currently are, this could go into 2023.

I know my overseas containers used to take 4 weeks to land, get off vessel, clear customs, get an appointment to move to the warehouse for devaning and then delivered. Now I’m getting close to 10-12 weeks to do the same things.

Home Depot, Walmart and a few other large companies are buying their own containers, and contracting their own ships to move their goods, but they are still running into the same port delays the rest of us are.


I also think this is what’s going to trigger the next big recession as we have become WAY to dependent on Asia for our goods. We are seeing the ramifications of this right now. 2022 & 2023 might be rough economy years.
 

10 shot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Posts
873
RDC Crypto
758
Location
Lake havasu
Many seem to forget there was a thing called a plandemic right smack dab in the middle of RGs plans...now we have material rising costs, shortages, delivery issues,, workers being paid to not work...etc

I blame Brandon.
Robby has found a alternate line from CHINA to the USA .......... all will be fine.
 

A-Tech_Racing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Posts
79
RDC Crypto
50
Location
So. Cal.
Website
www.atechfabrication.com
Yield is how much stress something can take before it permanently deforms, "low yield" means something can't bend very far and is usually the opposite of what you want. Likewise I don't know what a more "reliable" metal means. My understanding is DOM has a higher yield strength than "regular" mild steel due to strain hardening and being cold formed. This does not mean it's stiffness or ultimate tensile strength is improved, just that it can deflect more before it's permanently deformed.

Obviously the "cage" (upper section) is extremely important structurally. When the front or rear suspension compresses a bending moment is applied through the chassis which tries to compress the top and tension the bottom. This is why convertible cars are less stiff (vertically) and require massive door sills, because the height of their beam (for simplification) is only a few inches instead of a few feet. This is why when you cut the "cage" off current SXS they turn into a noodle, you just removed the vast majority of the moment capability and stiffness! The speed and the can am chassis shown on the previous page both have that same issue. The speed however has a fully integrated "cage" which would help in some regards---however if you cut that off I would bet it does the exact same thing as the can am! Obviously the speed has much more bracing in other areas, and I'm not up to speed (ha) on the failure areas of the can am, but when I look at the chassis I see very stiff areas on the speed that are still connected with a pretty weak structure, vs the can am that is not stiff areas connected with a not stiff center section. And without going down the rabbit hole, obviously there's only so much one can do when doors are required (doors just f*** up trusses!). So take all that as you will.

Lots of incorrect information and wording, though I did like A-Techs wording that design is superior to just material geometry. Obviously they go hand in hand, but conclusions shouldn't be too heavily based on "this tube is thicker", especially when we're talking about trusses.

Also, as someone who designs and works on very complicated systems, I'm still firm that there is no way in hell production units are done this year and in customers hands or even for the vast majority of next year. The sand sports show and the race reinforce that idea even more, right now it's what I'd call an engineering development unit, not even a true prototype. Just my $.02 on everything!
When tubing is made, steel sheet is rolled and welded at the seam. This seam is a weak spot that could fracture on impact or from high pressure fluids. By drawing this weld through a mandrel, it compresses the grain of the weld making the weld more closely match the mechanical properties of the steel sheet used to make the tube. It does not alter the mechanical properties of the base metal. That is why I say DOM tubing is more “reliable”.

But since most ERW tubing is made from 1010 and most DOM is made from 1020, it is also correct to say DOM is stronger than ERW, but only because of the base metal, not the process.
 

norutah

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Posts
104
RDC Crypto
93
Location
Norutah
When tubing is made, steel sheet is rolled and welded at the seam. This seam is a weak spot that could fracture on impact or from high pressure fluids. By drawing this weld through a mandrel, it compresses the grain of the weld making the weld more closely match the mechanical properties of the steel sheet used to make the tube. It does not alter the mechanical properties of the base metal. That is why I say DOM tubing is more “reliable”.

But since most ERW tubing is made from 1010 and most DOM is made from 1020, it is also correct to say DOM is stronger than ERW, but only because of the base metal, not the process.
So while we're on the topic of strength/weight. I saw 4130 mentioned earlier. If I see Speed cages failure I will have one built. DOM or chromo? MIG it TIG?
 
Top